tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post1376673967030034128..comments2024-03-29T05:41:35.119-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Losing My ReligionFDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-12831755733581175772011-04-27T21:04:43.797-07:002011-04-27T21:04:43.797-07:00"Vain are the thousand creeds
That move men&#..."Vain are the thousand creeds<br />That move men's hearts, unutterably vain,<br />Worthless as withered weeds<br />Or idlest froth amid the boundless main"<br /><br />--No Coward Soul is Mine, Emily BronteLisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-69638264876576638282011-04-27T20:41:43.110-07:002011-04-27T20:41:43.110-07:00Lisa: That was what infuriated me, too, not just f...Lisa: That was what infuriated me, too, not just from Bobo, but from a lot of the other conservative pundits, too, this conviction that only the craving for Heaven and the fear of Hell stands between humanity and unspeakable depravity.<br /><br />How I managed to make it through 53 years without murdering, raping, or stealing I have no idea, having not had a God to wag His finger at me since I decided that the Bible stories were about as plausible as the Brothers Grimm and usually less entertaining. But I felt that I was object lesson enough to give them the lie, and the persistence of this notion that it's "creed or chaos" gives me a pain in the giggy and always has.<br /><br />Like I said; it's Bobo, so he's a fucking idiot. But he channels a LOT of "ordinary decent Republicans", so if he's saying this stuff a lot of them are thinking it, and that throws a big ol' spanner in the nonsectarian republic machine that was set up to drive our nation.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-22221272871384134392011-04-26T23:25:33.423-07:002011-04-26T23:25:33.423-07:00[correction: "the way in which the Church dis...[correction: "the way in which the Church dispenses doctrine ..."]Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-6983502367868620392011-04-26T23:24:02.651-07:002011-04-26T23:24:02.651-07:00I felt exactly the same way upon reading that piec...I felt exactly the same way upon reading that piece of drivel. Evil is simply that, and good needs not that counterpoint for its definition.<br /><br />I've always felt the adherents of rigorous theology have a "Get Out of Jail Free" card -- that belief actually forbears "sin" (for the Lord loves a sinner.) What good is the confessional without confessions?<br /><br />IMHO, religion is a great set-up to keep people from thinking about things like right and wrong. They're kept little lambs, flock-members, who bleat to the hymns. Instead of keeping humanity on the straight-and-narrow, religious adherence takes the fall for so much "evil" due to its inherently divisive nature.<br /><br />Pity, really, because mostly the texts discuss compassion and how to be decent. What Bobo should have discussed was how the way in which dispenses doctrine presumes the frailty of man and the need for intercession, and how that removes that most basic tenet of good behavior -- personal responsibility.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-30160385501103573062011-04-26T09:58:23.177-07:002011-04-26T09:58:23.177-07:00jim: I think that depends on whether you think tha...jim: I think that depends on whether you think that people act decently because they are afraid of punishment, or because most people are fundamentally fairly decent.<br /><br />Call me an optimist, but I don't think that most human beings walk aroudn afraid to steal cars or fuck their babysitter because they worry that some devil is going to use them as a bayonet dummy after their dead. Some of us are just sheep, nice and harmless because we haven't the sack to be barbarians. But I suspect that most people really are fairly honest, hard-working, friendly, and humane.<br /><br />The ones that aren't, well, there may be a fringe 10% who are kept in check by fear of hell or hope of heaven. But the rest? I doubt it.<br /><br />And here's the thing; I think that if you pushed my, I'd trade that 10% in return for yanking religion out of the persecution-and-crusade biz. The permission that "rigorous theologies" give to zealots to hate them on some infidels seems to me WAY more dangerous to people in general than the effect that losing their religion might have on the people who are restrained from atrocity by their faith.<br /><br />It's kind of funny, in a sad way, that here I am, supposedly the cynical old sergeant, who thinks that most people can do a pretty good job figuring out how to live a decent, upright life using their own common sense and their notion of what good people do, while Bobo, the champion of Republican free markets, individual liberties and "Don't tread on me"-ism opining that without the fear of the Sky Daddy people will rn naked in the streets robbing banks and diddling small children.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-57401256420240744372011-04-26T09:36:40.673-07:002011-04-26T09:36:40.673-07:00Chief,
This weeks Newsweek or Time has a cover tha...Chief,<br />This weeks Newsweek or Time has a cover that asks-what if there's no hell?? BTW, i lump both mags together in my mind.<br />After thinking about it , i came to conclude- what if there's no heaven? This really is scary since i always thought that my flag on my coffin would get me in. A free pass.<br />Do not pass go.<br />But really- how would we be as a society if we didn't believe in H & H?<br />jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-54318844282100943692011-04-25T13:13:01.381-07:002011-04-25T13:13:01.381-07:00BD: You did fine, and have put your finger on the ...BD: You did fine, and have put your finger on the main problem with Bobo's "creed or chaos"; the direction the rigor is pointed.<br /><br />Back when Judaism was one of the crusading religions being a gentile neighbor of guys like David or Joshua wasn't a healthy thing to be. The theological rigor was directed outward towards other groups who, not surprisingly, failed to meet the theological sniff test.<br /><br />Modern Judaism directs the rigor inward. The "crusade" (poor word choice, but not sure how you'd construe "menorah-bearing" in English) is on the deficiencies within, on spiritual growth - "working to earn our faith", as you put it. As you say, that may bring you to avoiding, or, at most, pointing out the callousness or cruelty of the "others"...or fighting to resist them imposing their cruelties. But it doesn't demand that you convert them or wipe them out.<br /><br />And Judaism also features something that the other two monotheistic religions now lack; an acceptance of the humanity of the earthly application of religious doctrine. There is no equivalent of the Talmud in either of the other two faiths. The hadiths of Islam are perhaps the closest and that's pretty far off. There's no more Temple priesthood, no more official "Chief Rabbi" to declare certain interpretations of the Torah heretical and "dangerous". Jews since the Diaspora are encouraged to apply the teachings of scripture to their heart and mind...but also the other way around! That's a huge difference, and what, I think, makes the difference. Look at the exception - the "ultraorthodox" sects - and you see something very "Christian" or "Muslim"; the close-mindedness, the bloodyminded sectarianism, the resort to babbling scripture like a mindless mantra when confronted with ideas, peoples, or situations that they dislike...<br /><br />Take the two together, the "theological rigor" directed outward, and the top-downward rigidity of the obedience, and you have a very toxic brew indeed...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-26693463188262889522011-04-25T10:45:57.834-07:002011-04-25T10:45:57.834-07:00Look like fire direction central took some comment...Look like fire direction central took some comment spam. On the subject of theological rigor, it's worth noting that the Jains are the ones who are so protective of life that they wear veils over their mouths so they don't accidentally inhale insects and kill them. Makes your self proclaimed "right to life" types look like pikers. But then they only care about the unborn since they gleefully demand execution for abortion providers and seem happy to wage wars. <br />Back on topic, you are dead on that Brooks' "rigorous theology" (yes those are sarcastic quotes) is completely missing the point about enduring religions. His idea of rigor is a blind obedience and intolerance that produces pogroms, crusades and Taliban, both Afghan and Tea Party. <br />Coming from Judaism I understand that religion is not supposed to be easy. Religious practice often requires inconvenience or even discomfort but it should not require blind obedience. The strictures of Jewish laws and practices were about setting ourselves apart and working to earn our faith. I see something similar in other traditions that require asceticism or extensive meditation or distinctive dress. Of course Amish, Sufis and Zen Buddhists don't usually start crusades either. The key point here is that it is about inquiry and struggle, you have to work at it rather than just blindly having it fed to you and tolerance is part of the package. When faced with unbelievers you may shun them, but you don't put them to the sword and you don't force them to follow your religious laws. <br />This should be more coherent but I'm squeezing this in when I should be workingBig Daddynoreply@blogger.com