tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post1762666081319948090..comments2024-03-28T12:29:39.157-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Decisive Battles: Moscow 1941-1942FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-8724957548335405532010-01-07T10:27:38.113-07:002010-01-07T10:27:38.113-07:00The German attitude to the captured populations in...The German attitude to the captured populations in the east was a mistake,but one should not exagerate the military importance for the Germans of the occupied populations :it was not that there was waiting an enormous reservoir of men willing to fight against Stalin :most of them did not like Stalin,but most of them were not willing to risque their lives .Af if there were hundreds of thousands willing to fight,were would the Germans get the weapons,artillery ,....to equip that army ?<br />An other point :the exploitation of the occupied territories in the east was necessary for the Germans :the Wehrmacht had to be fed by these territories :the logistics made it impossible to transport food from Germany to the east and if one ad the destructions by the war and by the retreating Soviet army (on Stalin's order ),hunger and even famine was inevitableAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-14691657130841984952010-01-05T15:27:58.359-07:002010-01-05T15:27:58.359-07:00Great post and comments. It seems that a critical...Great post and comments. It seems that a critical Soviet advantage was not the dictatorship (which made vast costly mistakes) but the fact that the Germans were undisputedly worse. To me, the only reasonable path to victory would be if Hitler had the sense and the psychological makeup to give (or at least promise) nationalist autonomy to the Ukrainians, Byelorussians, etc., they might have been induced to turn against Stalin. As it was, even late in the war Hitler did recruit some Russians to fight against their homeland. But then again, without his raging hatred of all Slavs he wouldn't have been Hitler in the first place. Thoughts?doughelonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-16165007674147009242010-01-03T23:12:01.898-07:002010-01-03T23:12:01.898-07:00Anon: All valid points. As I pointed out, Hitler&...Anon: All valid points. As I pointed out, Hitler's drive to the east was a) a gamble to begin with and b) predicated on several mistakes or errors. I don't think he could have ever won, given the disparity of the national economies and the military age men available, the German logistical problems and the sheer viciousness of Stalin's dictatorship.<br /><br />But the "decisive" part of the entire war in the east WAS between June and December, 1941. If there WAS a chance for Hitler's Wehrmacht to win, it was then. And the final throw of the dice was between October, 1941 and January, 1942. If the German Army had managed to take Moscow...or the winter counteroffensive had ACTUALLY failed (I wouldn't call driving your enemy back and killing 200-300,000 of his troops a "failure" - sure, the Soviets lost more, but the Soviets ALWAYS lost more - even in 1945 they were losing 3-4 tanks to every German tank and probably the same in troops. They had the lives and tanks and aircraft to waste, and Stalin knew that) there might still have been a slight glimmer of hope for the German plan.<br /><br />And more to the point, the failure before Moscow caused the dismissal of some of the German Army's best officers and the total assumption of command within the person of the Fuhrer. THAT was a disaster that the German war effort could never recover from.<br /><br />So, yes, after the summer and early fall the ear in the East was a war of attrition that the Germans could not hope to win. But, no, is wasn't fated to become that. The Germans had a chance, and that chance ended before Moscow in December, 1941.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-76829731074687627242010-01-03T14:17:58.228-07:002010-01-03T14:17:58.228-07:00I have to disagree on certain points and especiall...I have to disagree on certain points and especially the title :the battle of Moscow was not decisive,in fact there was no decisve battle in the east :the war was a war of attrittion.<br />The aim of Barbarossa was to defeat the SU before it could mobilize its superior manpower :at last before september,but in september Barbarossa had already failed:the Germans had lost 400000 men and the Russian strength had increased from 2.7 million to 3.4 million and in december there were 4.6 million Russians to 2.7 million Germans .In fact the Russian mobilisation began from the first day :in 6 months the Russians send 6 million men to the front .<br />About the Russian winteroffensive (from december till april):it was a failure,the Russians lost 2 million men ,and ...the Germans were not destroyed,not that weakened,not that driven back ,they were still threating Moscow and in these 4 months they had lost 20000 men a week ,from june to december 30OOO a week .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-62958029897976325992009-12-29T14:06:13.163-07:002009-12-29T14:06:13.163-07:00Barry: Extremely good point. There was a hell of...Barry: Extremely good point. There was a hell of a lot of (to Stalin, anyway) worthless <i>taiga</i> between the Kwantung Army and the Urals. Add to that that the Japanese Imperial Army was possibly the least advanced army in terms of logistics and the operational art of the major powers of WW2. They made their bones fighting the British in the Far East, another militarily sterile organization. They didn't have to be that good to look like geniuses against the friggin Brits in Singapore. I doubt if the Japanese even had the capability to mount a winter offensive from Manchuria.<br /><br />So; good catch.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-39733255981253547842009-12-29T08:09:19.841-07:002009-12-29T08:09:19.841-07:00FDChief, aside from the delay in moving Siberian t...FDChief, aside from the delay in moving Siberian troops west, I've also doubted the story that Stalin only did that because he knew that the Japanese Army wasn't planning on an attack.<br /><br />Given the desperation of the situation around Moscow, it'd have made great sense to let the Japanese Army run amok in the Soviet Far East, to preserve the USSR. Japan could always be ejected later, but a successful German invasion in '41-42 would have destroyed the USSR. And Stalin was never sentimental about cutting losses.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-48337477988330368082009-12-28T12:53:22.101-07:002009-12-28T12:53:22.101-07:00Thanks for another great analysis. Regarding Germa...Thanks for another great analysis. Regarding German military fail, Kenneth Macksey has a good analysis of both world wars in Why The Germans Lose At War. http://www.amazon.com/WHY-GERMANS-LOSE-WAR-Superiority/dp/1853673838/ref=tag_dpp_lp_edpp_ttl_in<br />The Russian Front is a true horror, between the cold, the mud, and the savagery of both sides.Big Daddynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-6500267037769415662009-12-27T12:00:41.925-07:002009-12-27T12:00:41.925-07:00Pluto: the plan is Isandlhwana for January.
Jim: ...Pluto: the plan is Isandlhwana for January.<br /><br />Jim: Ta. I always shiver a little reading or writing about this. Talk about the Clash of the Monsters; maybe the best arguments for democracy are the actions of the despots. I'm not sure where you find anything redeeming in the collision of two sociopaths that ends up killing millions for nothing. Pure horror, really.<br /><br />Ael: That, to me, was the ultimate cause of the German failure. Hitler completely misunderstood the grip that Stalin had on Soviet Russia - ironic, given the man's own ruthless despotism. In the words of Emerson, Lake & Palmer: <i>"Bennie was the bouncer at the Palais de Dance/'E'd slash your granny's face off given 'alf a chance/'E'd sell you back the pieces, all for less than 'alf a quid./'E thought 'e was the meanest - until 'e met with Savage Sid."</i>FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-13183197101779625512009-12-27T07:55:49.393-07:002009-12-27T07:55:49.393-07:00Excellent work as usual Chief.
The scope of the b...Excellent work as usual Chief.<br /><br />The scope of the battle always takes my breath away.<br /><br />It is interesting that even though Stalin was a horrible monster feared by everyone in the land the invading Germans could not shake Stalins grip on the Russian body politic.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-19834804739749300632009-12-26T08:43:22.620-07:002009-12-26T08:43:22.620-07:00FD Chief,
I'm on a roll.
Your post is a great...FD Chief,<br />I'm on a roll. <br />Your post is a great read for anybody that thinks that the US is a military giant. If our Army of 1945 were to fight the German machine of 40/41 it would/ve been a dark day in Yuma.<br />One can't help but ponder the futility of warfare when reading articles like this. <br />I've always felt that a person should not eat for 3 days and be forced to sit in a meat cooler for a week before reading such tales as you've outlined.<br />Magnificent work Spitz.<br />jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-77167712716466342192009-12-26T06:47:13.714-07:002009-12-26T06:47:13.714-07:00Another well done post. Any idea of what you are ...Another well done post. Any idea of what you are going to do for January yet?Plutonoreply@blogger.com