tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post3061690824244004948..comments2024-03-28T12:29:39.157-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Decisive Battles: Plassey, 1757FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-19790705411002224552009-07-12T19:24:58.839-07:002009-07-12T19:24:58.839-07:00An excellent round-up of Plassey, as usual. Thank...An excellent round-up of Plassey, as usual. Thank you, Chief. (I come to them late, but I always do come. . .)<br /><br />I, too, like Ael's salient observation on the improvement of human character, ahem.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-83808256994628723712009-07-09T06:53:59.406-07:002009-07-09T06:53:59.406-07:00Ael said...
"Yes, the problem with treachery...Ael said... <br />"Yes, the problem with treachery is that it is a two edged blade."<br /><br />No matter what (if it was real betrayal, or a double-agent trap), Clive only knew at the beginning that he was dealing with dishonest people. And if it was a double-agent trap, that would have been less dishonest, so Clive was hoping that the 'traitors' were more dishonest than less.<br /><br />But not *so* dishonest that they would attack him after he finished off their former leader's loyal forces, so as to take the kingdom, but still trash the British forces.<br /><br />-BarryBarry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-16146348566085481652009-07-08T10:00:30.179-07:002009-07-08T10:00:30.179-07:00Yes, the problem with treachery is that it is a tw...Yes, the problem with treachery is that it is a two edged blade.<br /><br />At some point you have to go out and roll the dice. Clive was not particularly aggressive in this fight. I suspect a lot of the passiveness had to do with wondering if they would stay bought. (the perennial problem of dealing with "honest" politicians).Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-24701161226672263072009-07-07T09:47:20.520-07:002009-07-07T09:47:20.520-07:00There's another side to this battle that I jus...There's another side to this battle that I just realized.<br /><br />Let's look at the approach to the battle from Clive's point of view. He's got a deal with Mir Jafar and a couple of other malcontents that will be huge IF it works. <br /><br />But if Mir Jafar is double-dealing Clive then Clive is marching towards his army towards their own version of Little Bighorn...<br /><br />This treachery thing is a tricky business. I wonder how Clive minimized his risks. Other authors have given the impression that Clive was usually well-prepared but how could he avoid total destruction if the deal didn't work?Plutonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-78978193849338654072009-07-07T08:08:32.160-07:002009-07-07T08:08:32.160-07:00"And yet, when reading the newspaper, none of..."And yet, when reading the newspaper, none of our leaders seem to suffer from any of these faults.<br />I guess the human condition is improving."<br /><br />RoFlmAo!<br />AEL,<br />I have no idea you were a master of snark, but you sir...you have impressed me!<br />I salute you!sheerahkahnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-91373192941739754442009-07-07T06:37:11.790-07:002009-07-07T06:37:11.790-07:00Pluto: Yeah, poor old Siraj was pretty much screwe...Pluto: Yeah, poor old Siraj was pretty much screwed, blued and tattooed, wasn't he? Most local people, and rulers, found themselves in the same position when the Europeans arrived. You can see why they don't get all misty-eyed a la Niall Ferguson about the good old days of the RajFDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-81152093529177664702009-07-06T18:31:29.091-07:002009-07-06T18:31:29.091-07:00And mine, but not in a good way.
mikeAnd mine, but not in a good way.<br /><br />mikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-46658419671299949942009-07-06T18:13:20.718-07:002009-07-06T18:13:20.718-07:00Ael, you took my breath away with that last commen...Ael, you took my breath away with that last comment.Plutonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-61270573301726009972009-07-06T10:09:03.836-07:002009-07-06T10:09:03.836-07:00I find it interesting, that historical leaders are...I find it interesting, that historical leaders are full of ambition, treachery, arrogance and stupidity.<br /><br />And yet, when reading the newspaper, none of our leaders seem to suffer from any of these faults.<br /><br />I guess the human condition is improving.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-61411143541898784932009-07-06T09:58:08.158-07:002009-07-06T09:58:08.158-07:00You're right about treachery, of course, Chief...You're right about treachery, of course, Chief. I'm just impressed with the scope of its use in this case.<br /><br />Imagine you're the Nawab, you bring 35k of troops to the battlefield. Your opponent only brings 3k. Seems like an easy win, right?<br /><br />No, because you suddenly discover that 85%+ of your troops only want to sit on the sidelines and watch. Now you've got 5k plus 40 artillery pieces with poorly trained crews against 3k Brits and British allies. Still theoretically winnable but you're screwed no matter what.<br /><br />1. You lose and you're done.<br /><br />2. You win and you now have to face your so-called subordinate who not only has managed to persuade 85% of your troops to sit out the fight but has shown that he wants to see you dead. His troops are fresh and you've taken major casualties winning the first fight. You're done again.<br /><br />3. Withdraw before the battle and try to sort out out your command structure. You've lost major respect for refusing battle with a small force and the British have already proven that your command structure is compromised. Not a viable solution. Best to go down swinging and hope you're fondly remembered.Plutonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-14531850729412689452009-07-05T22:53:06.075-07:002009-07-05T22:53:06.075-07:00Pluto: Most of the European conquerors used bribe...Pluto: Most of the European conquerors used bribery and procuring treason. They had to - guns, germs and steel or no, they were usually outnumbered hundreds to one, and as the Soviets used to say, quantity has a quality of its own.<br /><br />So Cortez used local enemies of the Aztecs, we used the Crow against the Cheyenne and then the Cheyenne against the Apache. The Romans used the Germans against the Gauls. <i>Divide et impera.</i><br /><br />mike: Sounds interesting. Wonder what the Bengalis would have done with something like <i>lutefisk</i>..? I shudder to think.<br /><br />And the fancy imperial map was from a British schoolboy text in 1886. I seem to recall some uncertainty over where the actual northeastern boundary of Canada ran, not that it made a hell of a lot of difference to the Inuit and the seals who were the only inhabitants.<br /><br />basil: Motto of the French East India Company - more a wish than a declaration I'm afraid. And, ta...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-57461142812594268012009-07-05T16:26:51.849-07:002009-07-05T16:26:51.849-07:00The Latin on the ribbon underlying the Coat of Arm...The Latin on the ribbon underlying the Coat of Arms you have in the text, "I shall flourish wherever I may be borne".<br /><br />If you wanna know.<br /><br />I used to subscribe to "Military History" magazine, which had stories like this. Great stuff, Chief. Too bad nobody listens to or learns from history anymore.<br /><br />..basilbeastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-91941729688256579992009-07-05T15:26:11.175-07:002009-07-05T15:26:11.175-07:00PS -
Great choice of cartography also. 60-year-...PS - <br /><br />Great choice of cartography also. 60-year-old adolescent that I am, I especially admire the cartographic soft porn on map #4. Who was the mapmaker? <br /><br />And I was surprised to see that on that map it appears the Brits claimed hegemony over parts of western Greenland.<br /><br />mikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-35351109337854996022009-07-05T10:49:23.944-07:002009-07-05T10:49:23.944-07:00Another great post Chief. Thanks.
The Danish East...Another great post Chief. Thanks.<br /><br />The Danish East India Company????? Wow! If history had been different, I am not sure I could picture coconut chutney Danish pastry or glazed cherry samosas. But curried frikadeller and red cabbage does sound pretty good, no?<br /> <br />mikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-33407058307070384882009-07-04T16:42:44.384-07:002009-07-04T16:42:44.384-07:00Well done, Chief.
I've heard of Plassey and...Well done, Chief. <br /><br />I've heard of Plassey and its outcome but I've never read an account of the battle. I knew that Clive was hideously outnumbered and assumed that European weaponry and fire discipline had saved the day. <br /><br />Never realized that Clive had employed such an overwhelming degree of treachery. Much easier to win when over 80% of your opponent's army refuses to fight.Plutohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04036751798841079048noreply@blogger.com