tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post3088812762326626404..comments2024-03-15T16:47:21.346-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Die erste achtundvierzig Stunden...FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-64934080638056216032011-11-17T13:00:42.187-07:002011-11-17T13:00:42.187-07:00jim: Bingo. The Occupiers never managed to discip...jim: Bingo. The Occupiers never managed to discipline their troops into forcing the various governments into atrocity, and the present default setting in most Western publics is to defer to fear of "unrest" rather than rage at government excess.<br /><br />So short of a Jallianwallh Bagh in Chapman Square the Occupiers lost weeks ago. OTOH, the governments played them masterfully; kidding them along until the public mostly lost interest then pouncing on them and bundling them offstage with a minimum of publicity.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-41129482077925753482011-11-16T08:04:13.312-07:002011-11-16T08:04:13.312-07:00Chief,
The goal of the protests is the same as Ter...Chief,<br />The goal of the protests is the same as Terrorist goals- to force the gov't to over react. The difference is that T's use violence from the gitgo.<br />For non-violence to work there must always be the unspoken threat of violence. I think MLK understood this. Would MLK have been successful w/o the Black Panther /BLA fears?<br />Non -violence also requires one to be willing to stop a bullet to become a symbol.<br />jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-27039178873780339022011-11-15T05:51:12.978-07:002011-11-15T05:51:12.978-07:00But - and this is my point - the protesters have t...But - and this is my point - the protesters have to do more than just "drive out ambiguity"; they have to actually force their opponents to do something vile.<br /><br />OK, let's take Egypt. The Tahrir Square protests weren't sitting around some meaningless patch of park. They were tying up a huge portion of central Cairo. Businesses were shut, traffic stalled. When the cops showed up, the occupiers FOUGHT...and the cops retreated. Mubarak sent in his goons and the occupiers FOUGHT...and the goons lost. The Army wouldn't fight...and Mubarak lost.<br /><br />Contrast this with the Occupy version on NYC. The occupiers have been careful to generally avoid doing anything that interferes with the business on the Street. When they have marched they have marched places that have little or nothing to do with their stated objectives; nobody has been arrested trying to block off the Stock Exchange, or sit-it at Goldman-Sachs or Bank of America HQ.<br /><br />There has been no real attempt to use economic tactics to hurt their enemies - Taibbi's very sensible suggestion to attack BofA by disinvestment has gone unechoed by the Occupy PR sources, whatever they are.<br /><br />So to do all this placing of internal strain and highlighting of hypocrisy protesters have to take actions that FORCE their enemies to act in stressful and hypocritical ways. I can tell you that I lived through the entire Occupy Portland business and never, not once, ever had to do more the zip past the camps in the downtown squares. They NEVER forced me, or people like me, to take a side.<br /><br />That's spectacularly ineffective protesting in my book.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-39448906372467278072011-11-14T20:12:33.160-07:002011-11-14T20:12:33.160-07:00Chief:
Peaceful protests are a way of calling a b...Chief:<br /><br />Peaceful protests are a way of calling a bluff. They drive out ambiguity (for both the regime and the people). This is both important and useful. Communist Europe, Egypt and Tunisia folded. Libya and Syria did not.<br /><br />In more democratic regimes, peaceful protests can place great internal strain on state institutions as they are forced to come to grips with internal hypocrisy. They are often forced to choose between a loss of legitimacy or reform.<br /><br />Of course, if the protests do not resonate with a significant portion of the citizenry, the protesters risk being swept up and dumped in a trashcan somewhere. That is the downside of driving out ambiguity.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-17660544526455925782011-11-14T19:16:32.820-07:002011-11-14T19:16:32.820-07:00Mmmm...
The Wall fell not because of the protests...Mmmm...<br /><br />The Wall fell not because of the protests - the protests succeeded because the regime was unwilling to shoot the protesters. Rob Farley has a great post about Beijing where he notes that it's all about loyalty and legitimacy. The Hoenecker government had no legitimacy by '89, their Soviet godfather was done for, and the East German border police refused to shoot. If the circumstances had been different no amount of peacefulness would have succeeded in Berlin any more than they did in Beijing. Poland and Hungary were in the same boat as East Germany<br /><br />Egypt was anything BUT peaceful and neither is Syria. Yemen is in the middle of what amounts to a civil war and Libya just finished one. Tunisia was fairly peaceful but, again, more because the regime collapsed than because of the nature of the "protests" - and it was NOT peaceful in the early stages.<br /><br />So as far as I can see;<br /><br />1. The effectiveness of purely-peaceful "protests" is almost entirely dependent on the opposition's unwillingness to use force, and<br /><br />2. The internet is NOT a substitute for planning and leadership. "Organization" that consists of getting people to show up is neither. I don't see the 'net as changing that dynamic, as the failure of Occupy Portland shows.<br /><br />And I can't see Occupy becoming any more effective in the spring or any other time until they absorb the lessons of the other successful protest movements. So far I haven't seen it, and, believe me, I've been looking a long time in hope.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-30274422382143058102011-11-14T09:56:21.323-07:002011-11-14T09:56:21.323-07:00It is a very interesting world.
Compare the peace...It is a very interesting world.<br /><br />Compare the peaceful protests in Berlin 1989, with the peaceful protests in Beijing, 1989.<br />Both got lots of great PR, only one succeeded. Poland, Hungary, Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen, Syria, Libya. Peaceful protests can work, and sometimes that is all that you need.<br /><br />The internet changes a lot of political dynamics as it allows easy organization of mile wide, inch deep activities. It also permits uncontrolled side channel communications. We are witnessing an evolution of our body politic as great as that enabled by the invention of the printing press.<br /><br />Here in Alberta, our occupy movement just got a large donation from the OWS movement in New York to winterize their protest.<br />Imagine spending a winter in a tent on the Canadian Prairies. Only the highly motivated will last and that motivation will drive a lot of the politics for us sheep. <br /><br />The internet enabled this whole occupy movement and I suspect that come spring something new will pop up. I've got some popcorn and a fast internet connection. Best seat in the house!Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.com