tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post4478588797324098579..comments2024-03-28T12:29:39.157-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Decisive Battles: Rhineland 1936FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-9172354795946991892020-01-05T21:19:39.481-07:002020-01-05T21:19:39.481-07:00Herve':
1. A "lot" of speculation? ...Herve':<br /><br />1. A "lot" of speculation? Erm...the whole THING is a speculation; the crux of the biscuit is trying to figure out what MIGHT have happened had the French government responded to the Rhineland militarily. Everything other than the original German movements is speculation - that was the whole point.<br /><br />But there's "speculation" and speculation; based both on French Army doctrine and the events of 1940 it isn't too hard to envision the French Army smashing it's way into western Germany using the artillery-heavy, slow-moving tactics of 1918. The only real unknown is whether the <i>Heer</i> would have fought...but it was a decent little force and would have been 1) fighting for what it perceived as it's homeland, and 2) fighting a defensive battle...so I can see the Germans doing at least well enough to make it tough for France to blow through to the Rhine.<br /><br />And then...given the European reaction to the real Rhineland, it doesn't seem unrealistic to assume that the remainder of the Locarno powers would have come down hard on France, rather than Germany.<br /><br />I will admit that the air war speculation was the weakest of my guesswork. But, given the effectiveness of the Condor Legion in Spain later that year and their performance in 1940 I find it hard to believe that the <i>Armée de l'Air</i> would have achieved total superiority. I suspect they may have done better than I've speculated, but dominated? Why, based on what we know of what actually happened?<br /><br />And it's worth noting that France had numerous technical advantages in 1940. The <i>Char B1</i> was better than the best German tank, and the D.520 was more maneuverable than the Bf109E. The problems weren't technical but tactical and organizational, and I can't believe that things had slipped so badly from 1936 that the <i>Armée de l'Air</i> would have owned the <i>Luftwaffe</i>.<br /><br />So...yes, this is all mostly speculation. But I think that most if the speculation is based on a fairly sensible assessment of inherent military probability.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-11554018473469001472019-11-02T21:31:38.621-07:002019-11-02T21:31:38.621-07:00"The Luftwaffe fought the 1ere Division Aérie..."The Luftwaffe fought the 1ere Division Aérienne to a standstill, its He-51 fighters more than a match for the SPADs"<br />Nope Blériot Spad 510 were faster than He51, and you forget the D501 showing up just like you said "in small number". French air superiority is total and bombing devastating. Hitler's anxiety was real. What saved him was the lack of leadership on the French side. Good job on other research though.<br />Hervé Duboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09433582483613088349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-30308015292241055392019-11-02T21:10:28.685-07:002019-11-02T21:10:28.685-07:00Wait, Flandrin was a painter. Talking about Flandi...Wait, Flandrin was a painter. Talking about Flandin who was Foreign minister and not premier ministre, that was Albert Sarraut, right?Hervé Duboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09433582483613088349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-26521239203511552102019-11-02T20:13:50.596-07:002019-11-02T20:13:50.596-07:00A lot of interesting details and studies, but a lo...A lot of interesting details and studies, but a lot of speculations too. I don't see a very clear separation between the possible, the plausible and the desirable, the latter being obviously NOT France being the champion kicking Hitler's bottom, according to your reading grid. That's a point of view. Now remember, Talleyrand (not McArthur) said "I am more afraid of an army of 100 🐑 led by a 🦁 than an army of 100 lions led by a sheep." Hervé Duboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09433582483613088349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-24405340509688291372013-04-02T17:12:55.754-07:002013-04-02T17:12:55.754-07:00Chief -
Off topic, but maybe it cinverges. I...Chief - <br /><br />Off topic, but maybe it cinverges. I've been reading about the Hindenberg disaster. Fascinating those zeppelins. I need to make a trip down to Tillamook in your neck of the woods and visit that old Navy dirigible hangar. <br /><br />The route the German zeppelins took from their homefield in Frankfurt was directly over the Rhineland. They would travel north along the Rhine then cross Belgium and then out to the English Channel to head for NY, or south along the Rhine and over Switzerland and Italy then over the western Mediterranean to head for Rio. In 1935 the German company that was using the Hindenburg's predecessor, the Graf Zeppelin, for commercial passenger service was disbanded and taken over by a new consortium (DZR). Interest Goering's Air Ministry was given a 36% interest over the consortium reportedly to extend Nazi control over zeppelin operations. I have to wonder how many of those flights had military observers or photographers? Not just of the Rhineland but also of Belgium on the northbound flights, and of the Maginot line on the southbound flights.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-90679146141634752892013-03-29T23:21:58.897-07:002013-03-29T23:21:58.897-07:00Well done Chief.
Leon: De Gaulle was only a Colo...Well done Chief.<br /><br />Leon: De Gaulle was only a Colonel at that time. Yet he still forced the Germans to retreat at Montcomet even though he had no air support and zero fuel reserves. He also did well at Abbeville which allowed the Brits the miracle at Dunkirk, although you will never read that in English history books. De Gaulle's 1934 book on proposed modernization of the French Army that Chief cites above was widely read in Germany, even by Hitler. Sadly it was not in France. A more interesting counterfactual history of the Rhineland in 36 would be if the French Army had adopted De Gaulle's and Fuller's ideas on armor back in 34. But then maybe there would not have been enough time to implement those ideas?<br /><br />De Gaulle was arrogant and not a likable guy. But he had good reason to distrust Churchill and called the PM a gangster to his face. And he had even better reasons to distrust Roosevelt who wanted to deal with Petain in Vichy. Ike reportedly liked him but then Ike liked almost everybody.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-39588987409583502232013-03-28T05:15:38.522-07:002013-03-28T05:15:38.522-07:00Leon: That was kind of my point; Huntziger was no ...Leon: That was kind of my point; Huntziger was no worse - but no better - than about 98% of his peers. The French Army had exhausted a lot of itself in 1916, and officer leadership was on of the things it used up. The guys who might have been the great commanders of 1940 had been killed in 1914 or 1917. The German Army of the First World War lost a lot of good guys, too, but their talent pool was broader and their tactical methods more refined to begin with...<br /><br />So the idea was to make the point that whoever Gamelin picked would have been something less than a Guderian at driving his troopers forward...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-14655351359201784272013-03-27T15:48:30.608-07:002013-03-27T15:48:30.608-07:00I'm not aware of any French general's tact...I'm not aware of any French general's tactical performance during the battle of Sedan that's worth noting. de Gaulle didn't screw up as badly as his peers but I couldn't think of a worse person to end up having to work with the British and Americans. <br /><br />The general in charge of British forces (Gen French?) made the bold move to retreat to and defend Dunkirk, it saved the army but ruined his career - but that's about all I can say about him. <br /><br />Overall, the leadership showed none of the tactical flair, drive, or sticktuitiveness of the Germans. You look at all these allied Generals who just putzed around with their forces and compare them to Lt. Col. Balck who motivated his exhausted men by personally advancing towards a hostile town on his own. Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-7303095636625031722013-03-26T18:56:13.935-07:002013-03-26T18:56:13.935-07:00Well, Leon, I figured that given how critical the ...Well, Leon, I figured that given how critical the Sedan sector was in 1940 that Huntziger might have been considered just the guy for attacking the Hun; Gamelin seems to have had faith in him, however misplaced...<br /><br />But I agree that he probably wouldn't have done well; not sure which of the French generals would have. GQG was a pretty blunt instrument by the Thirties...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-60471887084710119682013-03-26T12:12:53.363-07:002013-03-26T12:12:53.363-07:00You had Gamelin use Huntziger? Based on his perfor...You had Gamelin use Huntziger? Based on his performance at Sedan, I'm surprised his units in your scenario didn't just spontaneously combust based on how shit his generalship was/will be.Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-5975305119181149942013-03-25T17:21:02.622-07:002013-03-25T17:21:02.622-07:00Barry, Leon; I was able to access the JSTOR articl...Barry, Leon; I was able to access the JSTOR article; I'm registered there myself, but thanks mightily for the help.<br /><br />The warning in the post was more for readers who might go looking for the link only to find that they had to register w/JSTOR to see it...<br /><br />Oh, and you might read back through this one again; after further review I added my "what-if" - what if Gamelin actually did round up a force to attack and try and push the German Army out...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-15376294049831138332013-03-25T16:15:32.777-07:002013-03-25T16:15:32.777-07:00Ditto Chief, if you ever need something behind the...Ditto Chief, if you ever need something behind the jstor curtain, I have access (and it's a wonderful thing.<br /><br />Also, Gamelin was an ass. I knew he made a hash out of the defence of France in 1940, now I know he helped scare the beejesus out of the politocos and other military leaders.<br /><br />On your point #2, unfortunately our political system practically encourages it. We don't need to know the situation in Syria because we've delegated that need to a politician who'll vote on it. There's no real need to follow world events, read up on the various players and their motivations in your day-to-day life. Someone else will make a decision and you can agree or fume about it. Then forget and re-elect that person in <4 years. <br /><br />I sometimes wish we'd go back to the Athenian system of direct democracy, putting the average joes/janes in charge of policy. They'd then be forced to learn about it and for once make intelligent decisions. But no, that take away from their 'Dancing with the Stars' broadcast...Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-88422316273385551222013-03-25T14:27:42.312-07:002013-03-25T14:27:42.312-07:00Excellent article, thanks!Excellent article, thanks!Brianhttp://brtrain.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-71774864648781368902013-03-25T09:29:06.475-07:002013-03-25T09:29:06.475-07:00Barry; contact me offline at jlawes@comcast.net wi...Barry; contact me offline at jlawes@comcast.net with the subject line "Rhineland"; I'll get right back to you.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-4496870773678846542013-03-25T08:12:37.067-07:002013-03-25T08:12:37.067-07:00FDChief,
Contact me - I have access.FDChief, <br /><br />Contact me - I have access.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-67403673064806273472013-03-25T06:37:36.207-07:002013-03-25T06:37:36.207-07:00I originally described it as "south German&qu...I originally described it as "south German"; sounds like I should have left it alone, eh?FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-17465248395300298902013-03-25T05:25:32.419-07:002013-03-25T05:25:32.419-07:00"... that included 3 mountain infantry divisi..."... that included 3 mountain infantry divisions (27eme, 29eme, 31ere Division d'Infantrie Alpins) which were effectively permanently stationed along the <b>Bavarian</b>, Swiss, and Italian borders."<br /><br />I'd have thought that Austria or Germany would have something to say about that :)<br /><br />Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.com