tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post5319542385828536998..comments2024-03-28T12:29:39.157-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Kings go forthFDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-38439258113168344502008-04-29T12:54:00.000-07:002008-04-29T12:54:00.000-07:00sherman in his march to the sea employed several b...sherman in his march to the sea employed several battalions of "pioneers" whose job it was to cut and build the roads for the wagon train which followed. his men were mostly hardy westerners who had much experience in this as the settlement of the ohio valley was happening.<BR/><BR/>it was also a nickname given to the cia/oss types who worked and lived among the kachin of burma during ww2.The Minstrel Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00697821546165315014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-69152969979050558972008-04-28T00:19:00.000-07:002008-04-28T00:19:00.000-07:00My understanding is that most European armies had ...My understanding is that most European armies had specialized units to do the road-clearing and road-mending for infantry units on the march. These guys were known as "pioneers" to distinguish them from "sappers" (engineer troops specializing in siegecraft) and "engineers" proper (who were the civil engineers of the day, constructing everything from stables and barracks to fortresses.<BR/><BR/>Specialization wasn't so nice in the 19th Century that each couldn't do a little of both. But the "pioneers" as such were typically the big guys with the axes and aprons marching at the head of the column of infantry.<BR/><BR/>Several armies kept the tag as a way of referring to engineer units: the Brits had pioneers, the Germans <I>pionere</I>, the French pioner. So we may not be very familiar with the term but it has a history...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-22931193584962220542008-04-27T22:31:00.000-07:002008-04-27T22:31:00.000-07:00Eddie -I think they were only called Pioneers for ...Eddie -<BR/><BR/>I think they were only called Pioneers for about ten years or so. Not sure where they got that name. I had thought the Brits, but Wiki has no reference to Pioneers in their entry on the Corps of Royal Engineers. The Corps does too much renaming and rebranding of units for my taste. Seems like we bounced back and forth from MEU/MEB/MEF to MAU/MAB/MAF at least ten times during my 22 year career.<BR/><BR/>My father was an Army combat engineer in Europe during WW2, maybe he met your uncle. And my uncle was a SeaBee in the Pacific.<BR/><BR/>mikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-19811145097928345322008-04-27T21:59:00.000-07:002008-04-27T21:59:00.000-07:00Publius -Yeah, Vietnam had them too, I remember ru...Publius -<BR/><BR/>Yeah, Vietnam had them too, I remember running into one or two former Young Pioneers who had gone on to join the NVA. Their background allowed them to enlist as NCOs or as Warrants. Highly propagandized boy scouts, they could quote Ho Chi Minh extensively by memory, and lots of flowery revolutionary poetry.<BR/> <BR/>mike<BR/><BR/>PS - Good golf in the great northwest yesterday. 15 of 18 fairways were dry, and no mud on the greens.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-67323448363624243222008-04-27T16:13:00.000-07:002008-04-27T16:13:00.000-07:00T discussion of "pioneers" kind of takes me back i...T discussion of "pioneers" kind of takes me back in time. Anybody ever hear of the "Young Pioneers?" Some very large youth organizations in the Soviet Union, East Germany and China. All about ensuring youth follows the correct path for the state. I actually came into contact with some of them. Interesting young folks. One wonders what those true believers are up to now that they're getting old. <BR/><BR/>Somehow I think you're discussing different "pioneers."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-90331174335816179852008-04-27T15:12:00.000-07:002008-04-27T15:12:00.000-07:00Mike:I didn't know about the USMC divisional engin...Mike:<BR/><BR/>I didn't know about the USMC divisional engineers being called that. VN was the only place we worked with them as they were often doled out to Company units two at a time.<BR/><BR/>My Uncle, after being transferred to the western front was captured by the "Amis," and made to work helping the American Combat Engineers, as were many of his brethren-in-arms. Beats sitting in a POW camp waiting to get dysentery, tuberculosis, pleurisy or worse.Fasteddiezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10431990022248470187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-14809252942368049312008-04-27T05:31:00.000-07:002008-04-27T05:31:00.000-07:00"We have come a long way from Ceasar's time when t..."We have come a long way from Ceasar's time when there were no specialized engineer units and every legionary in his Gallic expedition pitched in to bridge the Rhine and constructed massive camp fortifications at every stop on their march."<BR/><BR/>Agreed - I've always been amazed at the construction capacity of the ordinary Roman legion.<BR/><BR/>Having said this, in military practice as in nature, organiztions and organisms tend to specialize over time. Think of it this way: how many of us build our own homes? Yet in Roman times, most people outside the elite and the big cities probably built all or most of their homes and buildings.<BR/><BR/>So with military engineering. As with construction in general, it has become more specialized so specialists tend to do it.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-74859272900669321182008-04-26T23:04:00.000-07:002008-04-26T23:04:00.000-07:00Eddie -I believe the Brits and many of their their...Eddie -<BR/><BR/>I believe the Brits and many of their their Commonwealth allies also used the Pioneer unit designation.<BR/><BR/>The Marine Corps had them in the late fifties and into the sixties or seventies. Not sure when they got redesignated. It was only the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Engineer Battalions assigned to Divisions that got the 'Pioneer' designation. They were generally split up into smaller units and put in direct support, the most common being a platoon in support of an infantry battalion. <BR/><BR/>The Force Troops level Engineer Battalions (7th, 8th, and 9th???) were more road and airfield builders. <BR/><BR/>We have come a long way from Ceasar's time when there were no specialized engineer units and every legionary in his Gallic expedition pitched in to bridge the Rhine and constructed massive camp fortifications at every stop on their march.<BR/><BR/>mikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-18284526961551768322008-04-26T19:10:00.000-07:002008-04-26T19:10:00.000-07:00Well said.Well said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-90071484580867136772008-04-26T12:07:00.000-07:002008-04-26T12:07:00.000-07:00"alexander ran into the exact same problems, with ..."alexander ran into the exact same problems, with the exact same people."<BR/><BR/>As did the Brits, and the Soviets.<BR/><BR/>Military incursion into Afghanistan are either punitive expeditions, or failures.<BR/><BR/>Historically there has never been a third option.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-11108141561076286122008-04-26T10:37:00.000-07:002008-04-26T10:37:00.000-07:00Mike: Pioneer??? were you in the German Army in th...Mike: Pioneer??? were you in the German Army in the sixties? It was spelled Pioniers in the Wermacht (my uncle was one).<BR/><BR/>PS I can do slump tests on concrete.Fasteddiezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10431990022248470187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-84304480164768097822008-04-26T09:33:00.000-07:002008-04-26T09:33:00.000-07:00one can go even further back to alexander's campai...one can go even further back to alexander's campaign in afghanistan, he was only trying to establish a safe march and supply route into india. it took him three years to hammer out a line which lasted a short time. the tribal nature, the ferocity with which they opposed any and all incursion, the constantly shifting alliances, were maddening to him.<BR/><BR/>alexander ran into the exact same problems, with the exact same people.<BR/><BR/>my first thought on the petreaus promotion, given the failed "offensive" in basra, and the standstill draw of sadr city was that they were kicking him upstairs to get some fighting boots on the ground.The Minstrel Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00697821546165315014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-3927099490277057042008-04-25T21:54:00.000-07:002008-04-25T21:54:00.000-07:00Chief -Time will tell on Chiarelli. Hopefully he ...Chief -<BR/><BR/>Time will tell on Chiarelli. Hopefully he will be a better Mr Vice for the Army than General Cody. Where is IRRSoldier when we need the inside dope on this guy??<BR/><BR/>On that slump test, it was I believe a field expedient handed down by NCOs and probably not taught at Ft Belvoir or in the engineering curriculum at West Point. It was proscribed for use to determine feasibility of soil conditions for excavation walls - and what type of shoring if any should be used. Probably had roots from the trench warfare of ww-1 and/or the sappers of the 18th and 19th centuries.<BR/><BR/>mikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-49561028735365794922008-04-25T14:19:00.000-07:002008-04-25T14:19:00.000-07:00Mike: Slump test for soil - dude! That is Oooool...Mike: Slump test for soil - dude! That is Ooooold School. Wow. Kinda like the sand cone test for compaction - dunno any private contractor uses them anymore!<BR/><BR/>I am hearing good things about Chiarelli, too. God knows someone needs to step in and start knocking heads. Waaay too many of Clausewitz's fourth type of officer (energetic and stupid) made it beyond their ability group during the Rumsnamara Years.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-9365284378571719482008-04-25T12:27:00.000-07:002008-04-25T12:27:00.000-07:00Chief -Concur with your take on Petraeus' tone-dea...Chief -<BR/><BR/>Concur with your take on Petraeus' tone-deafness and how it will play between the tribes in what the Brits used to call <I><B>'Hell's door knocker'</B></I>.<BR/><BR/>I am wondering about General Chiarelli's reshuffling to Army AC/S. He has a rep for being the guy that cleaned up the Baghdad sewage, electrical grid, and water. He supposedly pushed rebuilding as the way to stop the violence and did some good there earlier. He has been quoted as telling his troops that the only way they could defeat the violence in Iraq was to do less shooting and more rebuilding. He was also quoted as saying <I>"Every time we shoot at an Iraqi in this culture — a culture of revenge, a culture of honor — we stand the chance of taking someone who is sitting on the fence and pushing him toward the terrorists and foreign fighters,"</I>.<BR/><BR/>Maybe he can start the rebuilding process for the US Army. Any 1st Cav guys out there who worked for him way back when and can say whether he is the real thing or just another hack?? He is a Seattle boy, so I am hoping he is genuine. I can't find an official Army bio on him. Most of the available web bios are dated.<BR/><BR/>mike<BR/><BR/>PS - Regarding the slump test. Back in the early sixties when I served as a pfc in a Pioneer Battalion (Combat Engineers to you Army guys) we were taught a basic slump test for soil stability/composition. It was pretty basic. You could probably do better with a look-and-touch test; duhh this is sand and this is clay. I don't know squat about ceeement - maybe the base engineers or the air wing engineers did that stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com