tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post6030209268882909547..comments2024-03-28T12:29:39.157-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Battles That Changed History: Bun'ei (文永の役 Bun'ei no eki or First Hakata Bay) 1274FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-72030221530739206562014-12-03T17:49:40.436-07:002014-12-03T17:49:40.436-07:00Anyone who can roll water off their ass doesn'...Anyone who can roll water off their ass doesn't need advanced weaponry. Stealth technology, though, might help during wabbit season.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-60479634107237570232014-12-03T13:20:56.381-07:002014-12-03T13:20:56.381-07:00Chief, how do you know ducks don't need nuclea...Chief, how do you know ducks don't need nuclear weapons?Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-59916136175256592572014-12-02T17:58:36.387-07:002014-12-02T17:58:36.387-07:00Barry: that's the "Mizuki", the wate...Barry: that's the "Mizuki", the water castle, and, yes, the labor troops, to use a 20th Century term for them, were fairly critical to the eventual success of the Japanese defense.<br /><br />The bottom line was that nobody in continental Eurasia that face them in the 13th Century really "solved" the tactical problem posed by the Mongol armies; that would have to wait until the rise of the gunpowder era several centuries later. The combination of tactical flexibility and discipline was too much for the early-medieval armies of the day, from Poland to Song China.<br /><br />The Japanese had a similar problem in 1274, mitigated by the facts that 1) the Mongol force was either more non-Mongol than commonly thought or Mongols-without-horses (which is my theory) and, possibly 2) the whole thing was a big recon mission.<br /><br />But the thing is, the Japanese <i>learned</i> from their hard lesson. By 1281 they had fortified the beaches - using those pick-and-shovel guys you mention - and met the still-horseless-Mongols (and, admittedly, probably largely Chinese and Korean) at the water's edge and pretty much fought them to a standstill. The divine wind took care of the rest...<br /><br />So...no argument that the peasant are militarily/tactically important. Just not much of a factor once the actual shooting starts...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-48442709883469115052014-12-02T14:44:17.641-07:002014-12-02T14:44:17.641-07:00FDChief: "Barry: The military value of these...FDChief: "Barry: The military value of these peons would have likely been considerable - their fighting value? <br /><br />Not so much..."<br /><br />Yes, and that's why they had them come.<br /><br />2,000 peasants can dig a d*mn big ditch and moat in a long, hard day.<br /><br />A friend who is a historian has been gaming out things like this, and pointed out that it's insanely useful to have a peasant crew show up, each carrying as much food as they can carry (say 1 week), and a tool (shovel, pick, rope, etc.). <br /><br />They eat their food, work for a few days, building field fortifications, road, bridges, etc. Then they go back home. That way you don't need any extra food, and they leave before disease gets to be a problem. And a ditch and a palisade stop cavalry charge cold, and provide lots of protection vs. arrows. <br /><br />Note that in one of the drawings, it looks like they did just that across a valley - a flooded ditch with a berm.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-8352303803019646452014-12-02T09:42:18.441-07:002014-12-02T09:42:18.441-07:00Chief: Perhaps Seth used biased sources also. Ju...Chief: Perhaps Seth used biased sources also. Just about all Korean histories of that time were secondary sources. All were based on the <i>Goryeo-sa</i>, written 200 plus years after the Battle of Bun'ei. So who knows the truth. Could be they were trying to rewrite history to soften the stain of Mongol rule. Or could be a tiny factoid in there somewhere. As you say we will never know without Twain's <i>Connecticut Yankee</i>.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-9470655974921358512014-12-02T06:52:04.582-07:002014-12-02T06:52:04.582-07:00Interesting. Turnbull - not an unbiased source, s...Interesting. Turnbull - not an unbiased source, since he comes to this from the Japanese side - says that the <i>wako</i> weren't the problem for the Korean coasts in the 13th Century that they became later (as part of his contention that the impetus for the invasions was largely Mongol rather than Korean.<br /><br />I guess my take on it would be that there aren't many other examples of a client/conquered state influencing the Mongol Empire's policy in the way you suggest; in general the Mongols wanted tribute and a whole lot of STFU out of their vassal states. But I won't discount the possibility that there was a certain alignment of interests there...the Koreans may have had some axes to grind on the Japanese raiders (and their history of conflict) whilst the Mongols were thinking along the lines of strategic depth and eliminating support for the Southern Song.<br /><br />The real bottom line is that I don't think we'll ever know. The contemporary/documentary evidence just doesn't seem to be there, at least not accessible in English. Hopefully someone will come across some minutes from Kublai's 1274 cabinet meeting where he lays out his thinking in detail. Until then we have a fair bit of grounds for speculation, but, as with so much about this fight, more possibilities than definite answers...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-74305828714709769722014-12-01T22:44:59.508-07:002014-12-01T22:44:59.508-07:00Chief - you are probably right about the 'era-...Chief - you are probably right about the 'era-names'. Many Japanese names are more commonly derived from places or things. i.e. Yamamoto = 'base of mountain', or my favorite Yoshida = 'fragrant ricefield'. <br /><br />This got my curiosity up, so I checked out <i>"bun'ei"</i> in an old Japanese dictionary. Turns out it has several meanings: 1] an outpost or detached garrison, 2] the <i>nenga</i> or era to which you referred 1264-1275, 3] a surname. and 4] a female given name. I somehow think they are all related, maybe remotely, but still somehow related, at least the first three.<br /><br />As for the Korean connection, Seth's 'History of Korea' claims that the Goryeo king Chungnyeol instigated the Mongol invasion, at least the first one before he found out how expensive defeat was. Wiki claims it also. Tsushima Island was probably the main issue for as it was a den for Japanese pirates that preyed on Korean shipping and fishermen. Chungnyeol BTW was Kublai Khan's son-in-law. The Mongols had a habit of marrying off their princesses to subjugated royalty so that the future crown prince would have a blood connection with the empire.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-48739727920128775472014-12-01T19:00:38.065-07:002014-12-01T19:00:38.065-07:00DF: Thank you!DF: Thank you!FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-70888741340996542052014-12-01T19:00:25.293-07:002014-12-01T19:00:25.293-07:00Barry: The military value of these peons would hav...Barry: The <i>military</i> value of these peons would have likely been considerable - their <i>fighting</i> value? <br /><br />Not so much...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-87009266404651382162014-12-01T18:59:34.125-07:002014-12-01T18:59:34.125-07:00mike: My understanding is that the Koreans didn...mike: My understanding is that the Koreans didn't have nearly the problem with Japan at that time that they did after the occupation of the 19th and 20th Centuries. The Japanese HAD invaded earlier...but, then, so had the Mongols and a lot more recently and bloodily.<br /><br />In fact, after 1274 the Korean government appealed to the Yuan court to knock off fucking with the damn Nips; the hardships in terms of raising funds to build and equip the fleet and the forces, the losses suffered in the invasion, and the demands for new forces were brutal.<br /><br />My understanding is that the <i>nengo</i>, the era-names, were typically phrases or tags that were supposed to symbolize the era itself. So, for example, the <i>nengo</i> for the period 1912-1926 (Taisho) means "great righteousness"; the following era (Showa) means either "promoting peace" or "promoting greatness".<br /><br />So not a clan or personal name, but, rather, a slogan intended to tag the imperial era with its "intent"...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-78412625555586604412014-12-01T18:48:53.866-07:002014-12-01T18:48:53.866-07:00Ael: I'm afraid that the problem w/ the siege ...Ael: I'm afraid that the problem w/ the siege of 688BC is that the sources are even poorer than this one; it's pretty much the accounts of Isaih, Chronicles and II Kings and Sennacherib's Prism. Interesting piece of history - especially given that it's supposedly critical in the monotheistic history of Judaism - but it'd be hard for me to add anything worthwhile...there's just not enough sort of "inherent military probability" to guess at...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-79298970032931064342014-12-01T13:59:52.831-07:002014-12-01T13:59:52.831-07:00nice work again Chiefnice work again ChiefDon Francisconoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-37864950753709324392014-12-01T13:24:25.674-07:002014-12-01T13:24:25.674-07:00FDChief: "However even with their blood up t...FDChief: "However even with their blood up the fighting value of these levies was probably debateable and their impact on the events of Bun'ei 11 questionable. Some probably had real spears or naginata but probably a bunch with nothing but a sharpened bamboo spear, a rice-flail, or a pitchfork. Their ability to do more than more than stand in place is unlikely; even moving short distances without their becoming a mob is hard to imagine. But, as we'll see, much of the fighting for the Japanese side consisted of standing in one place."<br /><br />They could be very valuable, depending on the situation.<br />Don't think of them as infantry, think of them as 2,000 guys with shovels, axes, ropes, levers, etc. They'd provide the grunt labor in field fortifications, and would move supplies.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-45303192087606051382014-12-01T13:12:40.243-07:002014-12-01T13:12:40.243-07:00Ok, having thought about it a bit, what do you thi...Ok, having thought about it a bit, what do you think of the Assyrian Siege of Jerusalem? Sort of the mother of all 'chosen people' battles.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-28366505920711446752014-12-01T11:35:30.247-07:002014-12-01T11:35:30.247-07:00nice research Chief. concur with your inferences,...nice research Chief. concur with your inferences, especially on the mongols leaving their ponies behind due to the issue of horse transport.<br /><br />Any objections if I link to this over at MilPub?<br /><br />One speculation on my part: Might not the Koreans have been the reason for this Mongol invasion - as per Ahmed Chalabi or Curveball in the American invasion or Iraq in 2003. There had long been bad blood between the Korea and Japan. <br /><br />PS - my Japanese language skills were never good, not much better than ordering sushi, flied lice, and a beer. And it is even worse fifty years later. but I do seem to recall that Bun'ei was a Japanese family name or possibly a clan name. Although it is unclear if the era was labeled for an individual or clan with that name or vice versa?? mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-22687374318064855672014-11-30T23:12:12.362-07:002014-11-30T23:12:12.362-07:00Thanks Chief,
Food for thought, certainly.Thanks Chief,<br /><br />Food for thought, certainly.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.com