tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post8791488887763176178..comments2024-03-28T12:29:39.157-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Decisive Battles: Milvian Bridge 312 ADFDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-10907780013040356302015-03-21T16:50:43.724-07:002015-03-21T16:50:43.724-07:00Warfare is a fascinating subject. Despite the dubi...Warfare is a fascinating subject. Despite the dubious morality of using violence to achieve personal or political aims. It remains that conflict has been used to do just that throughout recorded history.<br /><br />Your article is very well done, a good read.Geraldhttp://www.greatmilitarybattles.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-31550706889500618052012-10-24T10:24:45.125-07:002012-10-24T10:24:45.125-07:00It's only if you ignore the omens and *lose* t...It's only if you ignore the omens and *lose* that everyone tuts. Otherwise you're a bold general.<br /><br />Oldest rule, everyone loves a winner.Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-40943725556068194332012-10-23T20:27:47.812-07:002012-10-23T20:27:47.812-07:00Leon: Yeah - I left out the part about how Connie ...Leon: Yeah - I left out the part about how Connie made sacrifice, got a bad answer, and said screw it and marched out anyway. You had to have a deft touch with the augurs back in the day...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-53154695082252934952012-10-23T20:26:50.361-07:002012-10-23T20:26:50.361-07:00Ael: Thing is, several commentators of the day - ...Ael: Thing is, several commentators of the day - especially the Panegyric guy - were pretty appalled at the chances Connie took. They thought it was a pretty risky throw of the dice. But, as always, the only justification for rebellion is success, and he got it. <br /><br />And to agree with you, Maxentius seems like he was a pretty rotten leader. Constantinian propaganda worked hard to play that up, so it's hard now to say HOW bad a leader he was. But the rapidity at which his forces fell apart - not just at Milvian Bridge but in the preceding north Italian campaign - suggests something more than just ordinary incompetence.<br /><br />And no argument on the value in the faith itself; that didn't really change when Connie marched through the Porta Flaminia. People still got what they had been getting out of it - it was still a religion for slaves.<br /><br />BUT - it hadn't been much of a faith for slaveowners. Too much of all that "give all you have to the poor and follow me/he that feeds the hungry and clothes the naked is my brother" stuff.<br /><br />It's only after Rome captures Christianity that we start seeing the sort of "prosperity gospel" crap we see in the modern Western Right today. The bishops who had been martyred and hunted gleefully picked up the hasta and spatha and started their own pogroms and persecutions.<br /><br />So Milvian Bridge isn't so much about a change in the humble parish priest and his flock; it's about the parish priest who wanted one getting a cloth-of-gold chausable and alb and getting to declare an anathama on the parish Jews and pagans. It's about Christianity's transformation from a religion that HAD to be humble to one that could choose - and, sadly, often chose NOT to be...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-39063269559811312662012-10-22T18:30:32.493-07:002012-10-22T18:30:32.493-07:00I've thought some more about the changing chur...I've thought some more about the changing church and I am going to soften a bit of my criticism. <br /><br />I should have said that the Church became a religion for both slaves and slave owners. In many ways it was (and is) a mirror.<br /><br />You can see yourself reflected and framed by the church. This allows it to be whatever is needed by those who approach it. <br /><br />Since historians love the elites (as they are the only ones who leave records) we see the church as reflected by them. However, the humble parish church has also served ages. No institution could have possibly prospered and lasted so long without a solid appeal to the vast majority of those it served.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-50196744564699035612012-10-22T10:13:13.632-07:002012-10-22T10:13:13.632-07:00I think the ancient generals (or at least the good...I think the ancient generals (or at least the good ones) were capable of using signs and portents to their advantage. I believe there was a Spartan general who managed to convince his soldiers that an earthquake was a positive sign from the gods. <br /><br />On the other end we have an Athenian general who was convinced to delay a withdraw for several days due to an eclipse and got his army wiped out. I think it depends on the general's skill in 'interpreting' the innards of animals. Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-27960666396127896302012-10-22T06:21:12.047-07:002012-10-22T06:21:12.047-07:00I agree with Leon. Constantine obviously held Max...I agree with Leon. Constantine obviously held Maxentius in low regard since he left the bulk of his army behind. You don't do that for your "Rubicon" moment unless you have no choice.<br /><br />Since there was nothing forcing Constantine to act when he did, he clearly thought he had a decent shot at it. The events of earlier in the campaign clearly showed that Constantine had judged well. <br />Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-37973383121164460042012-10-21T20:35:33.178-07:002012-10-21T20:35:33.178-07:00Leon: The big problem with trying to suss out anci...Leon: The big problem with trying to suss out ancient warfare is that we just aren't capable of thinking like they did. The position immediately in front of the Milvian Bridge migt have made perfect sense if you read the augurs in the chicken guts or whatever. We just can't get into their heads at this point. Some factors in ancient battles are just not explicable at this remove, and we just have to accept that...<br /><br />And I tend to agree both that a) the "barbarians" weren't as barbaric as all that - it's Constantinian propaganda - and comitensus WAS more of an imperial guard than an "central reaction force" - the latter is imperial propaganda, too...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-21968106232660778052012-10-21T14:44:22.503-07:002012-10-21T14:44:22.503-07:00Two decisive battles in a month? My cup runneth ov...Two decisive battles in a month? My cup runneth over...<br /><br />I'd agree guess that both sides probably had 20,000. For some reason ancient authors loved inflating numbers even though they knew the difficulty of supporting such numbers even more than we do.<br /><br />As for the 'barbarian' units like the Ala I Samartarum, many would have been 'Roman' by the time as new recruits would have come from the areas they were stationed in. So after 100 years, I doubt any cavarlryman from Samartarum would know a samartian from a dalmation. There would also have been a lot of 'barbarians' from over the border who signed up for service in the legions (or auxilia) and then returned afterwards a richer and well respected individual, as well as thoroughly romanized. <br /><br />The old idea of the comitatus as an 'central reaction force' is mostly scholars during the cold war projecting their world onto the ancient one. A 'reaction force' based in Italy (Ravenna) would still take months to march to anywhere threatened. Also the idea that the greater importance of cavalry was solely due to Constantine's comitatus and faster movement is also hogwash. Infantry would be marching at around 3.5mph while cavalry would be going a breakneck 5.5mph. It'll get you to Germania a tich faster, but not by much. The real reason for the comitatus was simply to have a larger army than any pretender on the borders could have. <br /><br />Why the hell Maxentius decided to cross the river is beyond me. The smart thing would have been to pull back just enough to tempt Constantine to try to force a crossing. Then when only half his forces were across you hit them as hard as possible. Either Max had a helluva brain fart that day or all the authors aren't telling us something.Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-6847328296689818502012-10-21T07:42:59.984-07:002012-10-21T07:42:59.984-07:00"All it had to do, was transform itself from ...<i>"All it had to do, was transform itself from being a religion for the slave to a religion for slave owners."</i><br /><br />Brilliant - wish I'd thought of putting it that way. And yes, that's exactly what those early Church fathers did.<br /><br />Somewhere I saw a parody stained-glass window that shows a camel leaping effortlessly through the eye of a needle.<br /><br />Kinda like that, too; Christianity goes from being the faith of the poor and hopeless to the faith of those whose acts help KEEP those people poor and hopeless...<br /><br />Sad. Just sad.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-23388505822142259772012-10-20T22:37:41.812-07:002012-10-20T22:37:41.812-07:00Excellent post Chief.
It is fascinating how fast ...Excellent post Chief.<br /><br />It is fascinating how fast the Church changes in the time of Diocletian to Constantine. The church buildings themselves go from (literal) holes in the ground to grand cathedrals.<br /><br />The Church (as an organization) transforms itself into something that will span the globe and last a couple millennia. <br /><br />All it had to do, was transform itself from being a religion for the slave to a religion for slave owners.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.com