tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post3821916082797622151..comments2024-03-21T14:41:14.622-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Decisive Battles: Second Siege and Battle of Vienna 1683FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-21923334201886613932020-07-04T19:28:52.238-07:002020-07-04T19:28:52.238-07:00The thing is that the Ottoman troops opposing the ...The thing is that the Ottoman troops opposing the Poles are supposed to have largely been Crimean "Tatars", light cavalry that still largely fought in the steppe-nomad horse-archery style. These jokers had a long history with the Polish lancers - remember, from back up in the "campaign" portion of this post?<br /><br /><i>"The Ottomans, quickly bored of peace and looking for trouble, actually began a new campaign only two years after Vasvár, in the Ukraine. An alliance of border reivers - Cossacks and Tatars - loosely allied with the Porte tried to bite off a piece of central eastern Europe and were knocked around by the Poles under a boy we'll meet again, Jan Sobieski, the "Field Crown Hetman" (in effect, the General of the Armies) of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth."</i><br /><br />So the Tatars knew perfectly well that as light cavalry their job was to hit and run, to charge, firing arrows, and then turn tail - sure as hell NOT to stand in front of a lance charge of heavy horse. Slaughter a couple of small units? Fine. But the whole fucking Polish cavalry? Not just no but <i>fuck</i> no.<br /><br />So their whole plan from the get-go would have been 100% not to hang around when the Poles spurred in, and Kara Mustapha should have known that. They were perfectly happy to butcher a couple of hundred random Poles, but once the big guys with the funny shoulder harness came on? It was hi-yo, Silver, away.<br /><br />So, again...there doesn't seem to have been any need to impress these people (who were <i>steppe nomads</i>, remember? These guys are the ultimate military pragmatists; they aren't about dying gloriously - they're about cheap loot where it can be taken and the OTHER dumbass dying gloriously.<br /><br />To a nomad the farmer term "suicidal bravery" usually translates as "well, that was dumb as fuck". "Here come those damn fools again" would have been their likely reaction to watching the third pointless death-ride roll in.<br /><br />But the big lancer charge? Sod THAT for a game of soldiers. Bye, Mustapha, good luck with the whole "battle" thing...<br /><br />So Mustapha fucked up - again - and these weird little suicide charges are, well...still weird. Maybe in a movie. But in real life, against real Tatars? I don't see it, and I don't see how a Polish officer of the 17th Century would have, either...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-56561923057544467842020-07-04T10:16:50.389-07:002020-07-04T10:16:50.389-07:00Thanks for the answer - that all makes sense to an...Thanks for the answer - that all makes sense to anyone with an overview of the battle. I'm wondering whether the Ottoman rank and file had that context, though. Standing and waiting for a battle to start has got to be nerve-wracking. By drawing out the opening of the conflict, the Poles wracked the Ottomans' nerves more with every attack.<br /><br />Here's another thought. The Polish commander demonstrated that his fighters were brave enough and loyal enough that he could <i>order multiple suicide attacks</i>. He may have picked the 1% most brave/fanatical of his troops and sent them in to die, a quarter percent at a time. But the impression on the Ottomans may have been "Holy $#!t, these guys' morale and cohesion must be off the charts!" Which indeed it must have been. If you <i>know</i> that you will break before the other side does, you might as well get it over with right away.<br /><br />I'm thinking of those movie scenes where the boss commands his loyal henchman to hold his arm over a cigarette lighter. A similar thing might have been happening here.<br />Chris Phoenixnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-18881785383901214382020-07-04T07:53:29.351-07:002020-07-04T07:53:29.351-07:00I'd be willing to buy the idea that the husari...I'd be willing to buy the idea that the <i>husaria</i> were sacrificed to break up the Ottoman defense more readily if there was any evidence that the charges HAD broken up the defense. I can't find anything in the historical records that suggests they did, however. Yes, a mounted charge IS intimidating to face...but if it's faced, and the mounted element is not just defeated but pretty much butchered it sort of puts the riding boot on the other foot, so to speak.<br /><br />Keegan, in his discussion of "Cavalry versus Infantry" at Waterloo in <i>Face of Battle</i> notes that the initial impact of the midday attacks of the French heavy cavalry (and, before that, the charge of the British heavies) did break (and overrun) some of the poorer quality Allied and surprised French infantry. <br /><br />But after the British blew out their horses at the end of their too-far-extended attack they were butchered in turn by French cavalry. And the British infantry realized after several useless French attacks that provided they stayed in square they were secure (and they actually began to realize that the arrival of the cavalry meant a respite from the artillery, which really WAS hammering them...) they began to view the French horsemen with something more like contempt - Keegan relays the account of a British officer who recalled one of his troopers as remarking <i>"Here come those poor fools again."</i> when the cuirassiers crested the ridge in front of them for the umpteenth time...<br /><br />So I don't really see how those scattergun charges helped. The Polish wing had vastly superior numbers and weight over the Tatars on the Ottoman left. Once they got into position for a general attack it was gonna be over - at that point the "do you stand and fight or do you break?" question becomes something more like "how long can you stand and fight before you and all your buddies are slaughtered?" and breaking seems not just one answer but the ONLY sensible answer.<br /><br />So I still don't see WTF the Polish commander of troops was up to, but the Poles were generally good troops and their officers competent, so my guess is that there must have been SOMEthing going on that the historians just don't know or didn't see. But whether there was, or what it was, we just don't know anymore. So those weird little death-rides, at least to my mind, are still weird little death-rides.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-9432844747350187262020-07-04T02:26:27.462-07:002020-07-04T02:26:27.462-07:00Re those apparently senseless Polish charges - aft...Re those apparently senseless Polish charges - after reading what the Unmitigated Pedant says about morale and about the scariness of a cavalry charge, I'm not surprised that the Ottoman line fell apart after those repeated apparently-senseless skirmishes.<br /><br />Imagine - you're in an infantry line, waiting for battle. A group of heavy horse pounds toward the soldiers to your left. There's an uproar of battle. You don't really know what happened. You wait a while. Then a small group of heavy horse pounds toward the soldiers to your right. Again there's an uproar of battle. Your nerves are really getting stretched. Then it happens a third time. A fourth. Each time feels perilous. Each time you hope it won't be you receiving the charge of those armored horses.<br /><br />Then, the entire enemy line starts to move toward you all at once. As bad as your imagination made those earlier skirmishes, this is a thousand times worse. You know you will be ridden down and killed. Do you stand and fight, or do you break?<br /><br />Those seemingly-senseless charges may have slowly worn the nerves in the Ottoman line to a frazzle, causing that seemingly causeless collapse, and saving many more Polish lives than were killed in the charges. Chris Phoenixnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-17514601775235422242020-06-12T23:57:44.064-07:002020-06-12T23:57:44.064-07:00Ironic typo: "He also makes some simple error...Ironic typo: "He also makes some simple errors that he sould have corrected such as the spelling of participants' names." <-- shouldChris Phoenixnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-7918485647393373362018-01-04T07:59:16.150-07:002018-01-04T07:59:16.150-07:00I suspect the Austrian gunners did wear blue for a...I suspect the Austrian gunners did wear blue for a couple of reasons. First, simply because the KuK infantry wore white or gray, and most European armies put their artillery in different colors than their grunts wore. Second because artillery in the early gunpowder era was a grubby business and the dark coats would have showed the soot less.<br /><br />Now...that said, I get the sense that the "rules" for military dress were looser in the 17th Century than they became in the 18th and 19th. Units tended to dress more to the tastes of their commanders than a "national" army standard. So if there were a KuK arty outfit wearing gray or white I'd bet that 1680 would be a more likely time than 1780 or 1880.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-47175368901806675342017-12-27T10:01:21.141-07:002017-12-27T10:01:21.141-07:00I'm a bit confused about the Austrian artiller...I'm a bit confused about the Austrian artillery uniforms in the late 1600s. On the xenophon website it shows them wearing blue coats with red cuffs after 1650. But I've seen other sources showing grey coats. Which is correct? I enjoy the blog by the way. http://www.xenophon-mil.org/milhist/austrianarmy/austrian-vbl1s.htmAdminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15044888909571970839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-5912618152684412462017-12-19T16:33:42.009-07:002017-12-19T16:33:42.009-07:00From the detritus of war a simple pleasure
From th...From the detritus of war a simple pleasure<br />From the blood, murder and cruelty of human nature, the mixings of the gene pool to stave off inherited diseases.<br />I don't think we need those drastic measures for a greater good that much anymore.<br /><br /><br />bbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-53269576193251886822017-12-04T18:41:37.446-07:002017-12-04T18:41:37.446-07:00Oooops! My own typo. Kinetic energy = one half of...Oooops! My own typo. Kinetic energy = <b>one half</b> of the mass times the velocity squared. Getting old.mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-69158947684378580902017-12-04T16:26:00.395-07:002017-12-04T16:26:00.395-07:00FDChief -
I was thinking the old formula for the ...FDChief -<br /><br />I was thinking the old formula for the kinetic energy of a bullet, which is: Kinetic energy at the muzzle = mass times velocity squared. That get you joules if you are using metrics so you need to do something extra to convert it to foot-pounds of force. <br /><br />Found this: "When fired from a Beretta 92S, the standard issue US Army pistol, a 9 mm Parabellum bullet has a muzzle velocity of 335 m/s. With its 127 mm barrel length, the bullet's acceleration is calculated to be <b>4.4 × 105 m/s2."</b> <br /><br />To get into deceleration after it leaves the muzzle??? Lots of variables, but even knowing the drag coefficients I would expect that I have forgotten too much of the differential calculus to come anywhere near the answer. Although I believe the answer was long ago figured out by JSSAP and is somewhere out there on the web.<br /><br />mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-5972540380168414902017-12-04T08:32:30.422-07:002017-12-04T08:32:30.422-07:00Mike: the operative value for calculating force is...Mike: the operative value for calculating force isn't velocity, it's acceleration - F = ma. The acceleration is greater than the velocity leaving the muzzle, since the velocity at the moment of firing is zero!<br /><br />The real problem I have is trying to guess acceleration in the terminal flight phase...and my guess is that it might be half of the acceleration at the muzzle what with air resistance to a spherical shot...but I'm just guessing...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-10536751975949695252017-12-03T17:34:20.440-07:002017-12-03T17:34:20.440-07:00FDChief - Thanks for a great piece of history. I...FDChief - Thanks for a great piece of history. I think you are right on about the symbolism of Vienna to the Sultans. Mehmed maybe wanted to best his famous predecessor and become a Magnificent one also? <br /><br />That Knolles historian you quote (or his updater Rycaut) drives me crazy with his antiquated place names. Ballsora is likely Basra? Bussia, could that be the Vilayet of Bursa or maybe Bosnia? For Sias I wanna say Syria but you would think a historian of that era would know Syria? Could it be the Vilayet of Sivas? Or some long forgotten Sanjak in the Balkans?<br /><br />You gotta love Sobieski's winged cavalry. Still was used as an insignia in WW2 for the Free Pole's 1st Armored Division that fought with the Canadians from Normandy up to Wilhemshaven. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Armoured_Division_(Poland)<br /><br />PS - One small typo snivel on the 9mm. There must be one too many zeroes. The standard issue US Army Beretta M9 has a muzzle velocity of about 1150 to 1250 feet per second depending on the info source. And unless the laws of physics have changed it does not accelerate after it leaves the muzzle. mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-90740052489645761952017-12-03T11:38:51.145-07:002017-12-03T11:38:51.145-07:00Again an extraordinary read.
I tremendously enjoy ...Again an extraordinary read.<br />I tremendously enjoy your writing!Clarknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-54036449578203462322017-12-02T14:09:33.876-07:002017-12-02T14:09:33.876-07:00That's not a typo. Chief has always been a civ...That's not a typo. Chief has always been a civil rights radical and it is a little known fact that he was one of the first public supporter of the Black Panthers.Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-30621331905810705332017-12-02T07:32:43.691-07:002017-12-02T07:32:43.691-07:00I am duly impressed, and yes, we do live in a &quo...I am duly impressed, and yes, we do live in a "Red Queen's Race" type of world where it takes all the running you can do to keep in the same place. You really ought to publish these vignettes of yours in a book. (Typo alert, I suspect you wanted "black poweDer era" rather than "black power era"). Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-72611985110963714902017-12-02T02:08:53.835-07:002017-12-02T02:08:53.835-07:00Argh! Sorry about the abortive posting, guys. Hit ...Argh! Sorry about the abortive posting, guys. Hit "publish" instead of "save". nearly two weeks ago as I was just first beginning to assemble this piece. Hope you check back to read the whole thing...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-73631745727656208972017-11-21T11:31:38.070-07:002017-11-21T11:31:38.070-07:00Thanks as always for these excellent pieces of his...Thanks as always for these excellent pieces of history!Brian Trainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14679901195609623306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-55488298102353289412017-11-21T07:51:26.192-07:002017-11-21T07:51:26.192-07:00Great stage setting Chief.
I assume there will be...Great stage setting Chief.<br /><br />I assume there will be a second (or more) posts following with a description of the actual hacking and slashing.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.com