tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post3860370212775121010..comments2024-03-29T05:20:43.450-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Commander's Intent II: Mumbai - When Clueless Dorks AttackFDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-52985224686233676332009-11-22T17:50:10.798-07:002009-11-22T17:50:10.798-07:00Who knows where to download XRumer 5.0 Palladium? ...Who knows where to download XRumer 5.0 Palladium? <br />Help, please. All recommend this program to effectively advertise on the Internet, this is the best program!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-3956261144997258162008-12-14T10:14:00.000-07:002008-12-14T10:14:00.000-07:00This post below is from an Indian contributor to t...This post below is from an Indian contributor to the http://www.tank-net.org/ military forum. <BR/> <BR/>It is the best description I have found of what happened, when, and by who in Mumbai from a person well informed in Indian military affairs. The contributor responded to several bad observations based on BBC, CNN & other media reports in what I clipped below. <BR/> <BR/>From what I gathered below, the Indian security forces -- other than the locals cops -- did very well at Mumbai given that the terrorists had totally prepared for the battle space in question while the Indian Police, Security Services and Army went in blind.<BR/> <BR/>I urge you and anyone else who is interested to read through the complete thread there. It is far better coverage than you gotten from the main stream electronic and print media. <BR/> <BR/>This is the exact link to that thread from the military current affairs part of the tank-net.org site: http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=26738<BR/> <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>QUOTE(swerve @ Fri 28 Nov 2008 1518)<BR/>The TV footage, reports from those in charge, & accounts of survivors have convinced me that I'd be better off rescued by the SAS, GSG, or just about anyone else.<BR/> <BR/>nitin>>It helps to actually watch this unfolding in real time Swerve, before making those sort of<BR/>comments. You might actually ask the persons rescued about the professionalism of the NSG and Marcos instead.<BR/> <BR/><BR/>QUOTE<BR/>In no particular order -<BR/>1. Confusion. How many times has each building been reported cleared?<BR/><BR/>None.<BR/> <BR/>nitin>>This is purely the creation of the media. I watched this today in real time and it was the media, including the idiots at CNN who kept saying, is it over, is it over.<BR/> <BR/>The NSG chief actually lashed out a journo who asked this saying, its OVER when we SAY this is over. The next question was, "is this the final assault"? They have been saying that since a night back.<BR/> <BR/><BR/>QUOTE<BR/>2. "Spray & pray" clearly visible, as in your picture.<BR/><BR/>nitin>>Oh come on.<BR/> <BR/>You guys see one pic and jump to conclusions. See the entire vid of the incident and way they have acted then comment.<BR/> <BR/>In every case I have seen till now, the NSG and Marcos & support units have actually made sure that they are either providing covering fire as requested by the people inside (fire at XXX window , fire in the air to distract) while the strike team has attacked via stun grenades and door breaching. Even external retaliatory firing has not been done.<BR/> <BR/>Despite having had access to Carl Gustafs and Shipons, they were not used because the entire rooms were covered with blood & there was risk of hostages. So the Marcos and NSG - they have fought for 40 hours straight BTW, did recce by fire, room by room, floor by floor.<BR/> <BR/>Each time, they covered a floor. The media would start yelling its OVER. Yes media management is a problem but do realize, this is a first for India, nobody anticipated this.<BR/> <BR/><BR/>QUOTE<BR/>3. The plethora of different forces, & apparent failure of them to co-ordinate. In addition to the local police, the army, navy commandos, & at least three paramilitary forces were visible on TV at the same sites.<BR/> <BR/>nitin>>The plethora of different forces is because of the time constraints. The fight started with the Police. The next to arrive were the initial CRPF (Paramils) & Police antiterror squads. All these guys are basically armed with Ishapores & Sterlings because what they normally face are run of the will gangsters, which is what this event was.<BR/> <BR/>In the night, the call went out to INS Abhimanyu, from where the Marcos rushed to the scene at Trident AND Taj. The Marcos were told there were explosives, so they divided their team into two groups - one explosive disposal unit and a strike team, and the other, a strike team. Both went in with zero prep time because reports were coming in of hostage executions and the like, and came under fire. They only fired back in a limited manner to push the gunmen out so that they could begin extracting people trapped in the building. After that, the Marcos were joined by the Army's 18th Grenadiers who were rushed from Pune iirc & they stormed more floors.<BR/> <BR/>When the NSG arrived, they were immediately given precedence & led the teams with Marcos in support and the Army manning the perimeter with ATS and CRPF and Mumbai Police regular.<BR/> <BR/>Every bit of manpower was required. There were concerns that there would be more attacks all over Mumbai.<BR/> <BR/>QUOTE<BR/>4. Failure to cordon off buildings.<BR/><BR/>nitin>>After the Army arrived, the buildings were cordoned off. The Mumbai Police were clearly unprepared for the scale of the attack.<BR/><BR/>QUOTE<BR/>5. Unsystematic clearing of buildings, & failure to block off cleared areas within them.<BR/> <BR/>nitin>>The NSG went floor by floor, 800 odd rooms. In each room, with a master key, and a Taj Employee + employee list, they queried, checked the occupants (if any) and escorted them to a centrally<BR/>secure location and outside. It was methodical, it was deliberate and planned.<BR/><BR/>QUOTE<BR/>6. Why were blokes with Dragunov sniper rifles going in with the building clearing squads, while outside, covering windows, there were crowds of men with AK-47s & even shorter-range, more compact, weapons? Clearly seen on TV . . .<BR/><BR/>nitin>>Every man, every gun available was pressed to service. I don't think you guys even understand how big the Taj is. Even inside, there are areas where a sniper can be deployed for over watch<BR/>of floor by floor.<BR/> <BR/>The Army uses Dragunovs. If you saw them, that is the first in, 18th Grenadiers.<BR/><BR/>The NSG uses the PSG-1 and SIG-550.<BR/><BR/>QUOTE<BR/>Then we have to factor in what happened at the start. Reports from the main station (Victoria when I was there - I forget the current name) suggest that the police arrived 30 minutes after<BR/>the first shootings there, arriving long after the terrorists had moved on, & the ambulances arrived.<BR/> <BR/>nitin>>The police were told there was a gang shootout & sent an encounter team which was ambushed and shot.<BR/> <BR/> <BR/>QUOTE I'm an ignorant amateur, & I wouldn't dare even think of planning an operation to deal with such a crisis, because I have some idea of how little I know, but even I could see cock-ups in action, all over the place. India is full of talented people. When I spent a few months traveling around the country, I was frequently impressed by people I met. Where are they?<BR/><BR/>nitin>>Sorry but you clearly are underestimating the scale of the operation & how it actually unfolded. <BR/> <BR/>nitin: Fri 28 Nov 2008 1819 <BR/> <BR/><BR/> <BR/>Another post by nitin, this is how to tell the India security forces players apart by the equipment they carry:<BR/> <BR/>The Army - uses the INSAS Battle rifle, Dragunov<BR/> <BR/>The NSG - HRT/CRT unit - uses the MP5, PSG-1<BR/> <BR/>The Marine Commandos - Navy MARCOS - use the MP5, AK-47, PSG-1, INSAS et al.<BR/> <BR/>The latter three took the lead once they arrived. Unfortunately, thanks to a pusillanimous Indian Govt, Indian anti terror laws and equipment for regular police forces remain pathetic.<BR/><BR/>Only state which is an exception is Andhra Pradesh, which has an anti terror squad called the Greyhounds which is decently equipped and well trained.<BR/> <BR/>nitin<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Necessary Indian security acronyms and weapon names:<BR/> <BR/>ATS -- Anti Terrorism Squad (Think local police SWAT team)<BR/><BR/>Carl Gustafs -- 84m recoiless rifle<BR/><BR/>CRPF -- Central Reserve Police Force, A paramilitary security agency/force functioning under the aegis of Indian Ministry of Home Affairs<BR/><BR/>Dragunov -- Russian 7.62mm semi-automatic sniper sniper rifle<BR/><BR/>INSAS -- Indian National Small Arms System, a modular 5.56x45mm NATO caliber assault rifle based on the AK-47<BR/><BR/>Ishapore -- 7.62x51 NATO calibre Ishapore 2A/2A1, Indian version of Lee-Enfield bolt-action rifle <BR/><BR/>MARCOS -- Marine Commandos<BR/><BR/>NGS -- National Security Guard<BR/><BR/>PSG1 -- H&K 7.62mm semi-automatic sniper rifle<BR/><BR/>Shipon -- Israeli made shoulder launched infantry anti-tank rocket<BR/><BR/>SIG550 -- H&K 7.62mm semi-automatic sniper rifle<BR/><BR/>Sterling -- 1950's vintage British designed 9mm submachine gunMil-Tech Bardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11654312581130984629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-10751953540533523132008-12-06T15:49:00.000-07:002008-12-06T15:49:00.000-07:00when clueless dorks fall in lovehttp://tinyurl.com...when clueless dorks fall in love<BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/5sgq2a<BR/><BR/>Rich Lowry was the guy that popped his cork at Palin's first wink.<BR/><BR/>Look what happened to Chambliss' constituents!<BR/><BR/>:)<BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/5o62wz<BR/><BR/>I kinda wish Saxby would explode.<BR/><BR/>In a Sugar factory, no less.<BR/><BR/>...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-91528532385490719032008-12-04T22:51:00.000-07:002008-12-04T22:51:00.000-07:00Sheerah: "ravaging da good woman folk, and scatter...Sheerah: <I>"ravaging da good woman folk, and scattering da men-folk!?!"</I><BR/><BR/>LMAO!<BR/><BR/>"Look, Sven, I think that's one o' those A-rab terists! Hide, quick, he may want to ravage me!"<BR/><BR/>"Anyone wants ravage you, Marta, is too crazy to get work as a terist."<BR/><BR/>"Well, so you say, you old coot! Humph! Maybe I SHOULD find a nice young terist to ravish me some! <I>Oh, Mister Ter-risstttt...!!!"</I>FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-72954372273568987692008-12-04T19:01:00.000-07:002008-12-04T19:01:00.000-07:00You've really outdone yourself in this "Commander'...You've really outdone yourself in this "Commander's Intent" series. The only real problem I have is in finding anything to say that might be considered value added. So I won't.<BR/><BR/>Excellent work. Keep it coming.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-84296342805838004512008-12-04T08:26:00.000-07:002008-12-04T08:26:00.000-07:00AEL,If this was sponsored by Pak then it was the m...AEL,<BR/>If this was sponsored by Pak then it was the mil/intel side and not the civilian leaders. The mil/intel complex also control the nucs.If nucs are popped it may be without orders from the civilian leadership.<BR/>Indeed this is a fine mess.The scary part is that the US is at the periphery and as such could be further drawn in.Remember that the US is in a Nuc Treaty that allows nuc materials to be passed from US to India.When this was happening RAW opposed the action which can have unintended consequences.This seems to be the hallmark of us policy.<BR/>I find it interesting that the US spends billions for defense against these Mumbai scenario type attacks and these are not even remotely possible in the CONUS. jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-91077976146396047682008-12-03T18:12:00.000-07:002008-12-03T18:12:00.000-07:00I would agree that this attack was primarily done ...I would agree that this attack was primarily done by non-state actors.<BR/>However, I am very worried about where India and Pakistan end up.<BR/><BR/>I am particularly worried about the ability of Pakistan's national institutions to deal with these problems. At a time when you need adult supervision, I worry about their ability to keep the nuclear sword in its sheath.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-925097567951452552008-12-03T14:42:00.000-07:002008-12-03T14:42:00.000-07:00Good thing the Pakistani's don't have nuclear weap...Good thing the Pakistani's don't have nuclear weapons. <BR/><BR/>oh, wait ..Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-78072895891783590852008-12-03T14:23:00.000-07:002008-12-03T14:23:00.000-07:00Lisa: I, too, marvel at the way that the 27 percen...Lisa: I, too, marvel at the way that the 27 percenters seem to go into a panty-peeing sqawk at this stuff. Sad.<BR/><BR/>Ael: You're right, I got that wrong, and I have corrected the reference. Good catch.<BR/><BR/>Sheerah: Pakistan has always been God's abortion of a "country". I hate to think of how it could be MORE f-ed up than it already is. And yet...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-55900770241064024442008-12-03T14:13:00.000-07:002008-12-03T14:13:00.000-07:00P.S.--love the Blofeld character; now there's a ne...P.S.--love the Blofeld character; now <I>there's</I> a nemesis.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-34261470231214149192008-12-02T23:34:00.000-07:002008-12-02T23:34:00.000-07:00Man on Fire!Man on Fire!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-58692973420484483782008-12-02T23:29:00.000-07:002008-12-02T23:29:00.000-07:00Not that it changes the validity of your argument,...Not that it changes the validity of your argument, but I thought that the Deccan Plateau was south central India. Hence, not a lot of Pakistanis there.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-72148777062200661652008-12-02T22:14:00.000-07:002008-12-02T22:14:00.000-07:00You have encompassed the situation. Ten guys vs. ...You have encompassed the situation. Ten guys vs. a very ill-equipped police force. <BR/><BR/>"Assaf Hefetz, a former Israeli police commissioner who created the country's police anti-terror unit three decades ago, watched the slow-motion operation in disbelief" as the poor response.<BR/><BR/>What is most frightening is the willingness of Americans citizens to be whipped into a froth over something far shy of cataclysmic. When did "we have nothing to fear but fear itself" become passe?Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.com