tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post3913433257743086458..comments2024-03-28T12:29:39.157-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Decisive Battles: Pavia 1525FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-81095138234629840142017-09-21T09:18:23.721-07:002017-09-21T09:18:23.721-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Geraldhttp://www.greatmilitarybattles.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-61278966796588521082009-05-01T09:43:00.000-07:002009-05-01T09:43:00.000-07:00The french did not use arquebuses. They used cross...The french did not use arquebuses. They used crossbows.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-942826977473388222009-02-13T17:34:00.000-07:002009-02-13T17:34:00.000-07:00Fascinating, thank you. I've learned much, both f...Fascinating, thank you. I've learned much, both from you and your commenters.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-52884140941822688622009-02-12T10:53:00.000-07:002009-02-12T10:53:00.000-07:00I would point out the T-34 had a lot of quality to...I would point out the T-34 had a lot of quality to go with the quantity as well. <BR/><BR/>It's an interesting comparison between German and Russian generals. Despite working for two equally ruthless and psychotic despots, with the Germans if you pissed of Hitler enough he just fired you. Stalin had you set on fire.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-30631981548477417292009-02-12T04:33:00.000-07:002009-02-12T04:33:00.000-07:00Pluto: One of the odd things I came across was the...Pluto: One of the odd things I came across was the fact that while the Il-2 pilot's compartment was pretty heavily armored the rear gunner was almost unprotected, and the Sovs lost four gunners for every pilot. To the point where even in Russia the tale goes that Shturmovik gunners came from "penal" units - that you wound up in the gunner's seat in an Il-2 for saying Stalin was a big bastard or something. Not true, but says something about the Soviet thinking that they didn't bother to armor the gunner...<BR/><BR/>As far as pilot/aircrft quality vs. German or Western Allies, well, the Soviets would have said "Quantity has a quality of its own"...we can knock them for the crudity of their weapons and the brutality of their tactics but before we go too far, we should probably remember who was the last man standing in 1945...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-62102644509419159802009-02-11T16:11:00.000-07:002009-02-11T16:11:00.000-07:00Zhukov's autobiography is a very good read. Alas,...Zhukov's autobiography is a very good read. Alas, it (at best) hints at all the really juicy gossipy stuff that you would *love* to know about the personalities involved.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-25567601090810908542009-02-11T16:02:00.000-07:002009-02-11T16:02:00.000-07:00You're also right that the weaponry we sent them w...You're also right that the weaponry we sent them were of limited value (except trucks, which they turned into Katyusha launchers because American trucks were so much more reliable than their own). But that wasn't the bulk of the aid that we sent them, I read somewhere (can't find the source right now) that something like 22% of the food the Russians were eating in 1944-45 was grown in America. This freed up a LOT of peasants to make a one-way trip to Germany or to build tanks.<BR/><BR/>The Russians had another famine in 1946 when the US stopped sending them foodstuffs, mostly because their farm machinery and transportation network had been badly used and abused during the war.<BR/><BR/>You're all right that the Red Air Force was really bad at training pilots in 1942-43 but the Yaks and Sturmoviks kept getting better and were pretty good by the end of the war. The pilots had survived one of the most punishing schools in the world (getting shot down by the Germans again and again) so they were pretty good too. <BR/><BR/>One-on-one against British or American pilots they'd have been toast but they were brutally effective against the Germans by mid 1943 and were helpful in repelling the German attack at Kursk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-69815247427902570572009-02-11T14:29:00.000-07:002009-02-11T14:29:00.000-07:00Sheerah: Have to agree with you - I'll bet that a ...Sheerah: Have to agree with you - I'll bet that a Soviet pilot moved to the Bell aircraft from Il-2 "Shturmoviks" must have felt pretty chapped.<BR/><BR/>Ael: Zhukov must have had something under his uniform trousers that clanged when he walked. I should really try and find a good bio of the man.<BR/><BR/>Like I say, the Lend-Lease stuff DID have a significant impact on the Leningrad area. But overall? Have to say I'm not convinced.<BR/><BR/>At the very least, almost every Russian I've talked to, and every Soviet and even post-Soviet history has been pretty authoritative that about 95% of the war effort came from within the USSR.<BR/><BR/>The Sovs were good at the big stuff like dams, generators and wars. Wasteful, crude but effective.<BR/><BR/>The day-to-day human life stuff?<BR/><BR/>Not so much.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-85592884354601530452009-02-11T12:31:00.000-07:002009-02-11T12:31:00.000-07:00I don't really know how much the lend-lease trucks...I don't really know how much the lend-lease trucks helped. I suspect that most material was moved by railroads and horse drawn wagons.<BR/>Motor vehicles were precious (and relatively rare) things.<BR/><BR/>Were they enough to tip the balance? I don't know. I suspect not.<BR/><BR/>Now, a second front in France, in 1942. *That* would have helped. Alas, the allies could not do it.<BR/><BR/>Also, note the difference between Stalin and Hitler. After Moscow, it was basically Hitler as the general.<BR/><BR/>Stalin let Zhukov mostly run the war. (except when he didn't, which usally meant a lot of extra russians getting killed, and Zhukov having to come and give him bad news a month or two later.<BR/><BR/>I often wonder what it must have been like for Zhukov to work for Stalin, literally putting his life on the line, wondering how far he could push Stalin on the one side and the Germans on the other).<BR/><BR/>I am convinced that no officer in the Red Army had a more dangerous job. He must have had nerves of steel. I would never want to play poker (or chess) against him.<BR/><BR/>The wonder of it all, is that both Stalin and Zhukov died as old menAelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-28775755868871669152009-02-11T11:55:00.000-07:002009-02-11T11:55:00.000-07:00I think the one thing that helped the Soviets...::...I think the one thing that helped the Soviets...:::cough:::...was the 155 artillery pieces we.../ahem..."loaned" them, which if one were to do a side by side comparison, seems to become the standard Soviet design for 155 arty for the next twenty years.<BR/><BR/>The Bell Cobras...great at ground attack...but the Russians had better, and to be perfectly honest, the Russians were not by any measure masters of the air...a zerg of ground forces and aircraft was about the only thing they could muster...so, I think the reason why Germany had a crap load of aces from the Eastern Front had to do more with the quality of the Russian pilots than with the types of planes they were flying.<BR/>And given the comparisons between the two, Zukov, imo, a practical General, knew his forces were piss poor compared to the Germans, so...go with what you got...if you don't have quality, go en masse.<BR/>A 98 rifle only carries so many bullets, and a German soldier can carry only so many rounds before it's just him, his bayonet, facing a whole horde of scared-shitless peasants who are more afraid of the commmissar behind them than they are of the German soldier in front of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-61915951205951518952009-02-11T10:33:00.000-07:002009-02-11T10:33:00.000-07:00As much as I'm not a big defender of the Soviet "l...As much as I'm not a big defender of the Soviet "let's throw bodies at them until they run out of bullets" style of tactics, they had a point: they had the bodies and the Germans didn't. They didn't and probably never could match the Heer's tactical sophistication, so they did what worked. But...<BR/><BR/>Sheerah, my understanding is that the sequence of events that led to Stalingrad was, to a large degree, driven by Stalin's insistence in attacking around Moscow in the winter and spring of 1942. As mike notes, the counteroffensive stalled and ground up a lot of good troops - the "Siberian" divisions that Zhukov pulled out of his hat to stop Barbarossa in front of Moscow (Oh, yeah, and thanks, Japanese, for doing such great fucking job pinning down the Group of Soviet Forces in Siberia in 1941, signed, yours in Hell, Adolf) - that in turn left enough thin sections along the Ostfront that Army Group B could hammer on down to the Volga.<BR/><BR/>And I have to ask: was Lend-Lease that big a deal? I know that it helped - certainly the impact on the siege of Leningrad was pretty huge - but my understanding is that in terms of overall quantity the amount of total material that reached the USSR was fairly modest compared to her own production.<BR/><BR/>And certainly the material loss from the North Atlantic convoys up to 1944 had to be pretty brutal. I always got the impression that Lend-Lease was as much about politics as it was about logistics...<BR/><BR/>Given the discussion here I might have to talk about the Битва под Москвой before next December!FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-29330229965810145022009-02-11T09:24:00.000-07:002009-02-11T09:24:00.000-07:00I've always considered Stalingrad as the battle th...I've always considered Stalingrad as the battle that broke the Wehrmacht's Eastern Front back, and Moscow as the one that kept the Russians in the war.<BR/>The way I see it, and this is just my perspective and thus not monolithic, also forgive me if I use sports analogy here, but if we look at it from a volleyball game Moscow was the set-up for the Stalingrad spike.<BR/>Germany was still in the fight after Moscow, but after Stalingrad, Germany was on the defensive from there on out.<BR/>And if I remember correctly, the reason why the Germans were able to do the habeus grabbus on Stalingrad was because the Russian forces were still tied up at Moscow (granted though the Germans for all intents and purposes were not much of a going concern by that time around Moscow, but Stalin, if I recall correctly, was a bit paranoid).<BR/>So, I still think that the end of German ability to execute an effective offensive officially ended at Stalingrad.<BR/>They did loose an entire Army Corps there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-76574856501827025232009-02-11T09:00:00.000-07:002009-02-11T09:00:00.000-07:00Zhukov shot more than a few of those 58 division c...Zhukov shot more than a few of those 58 division commanders when their counter-offensive stalled. But in the long run it was Dodge and Studebaker trucks, Willys Jeeps, P-39 fighters, <I>"Kobrastochka"</I> to their Russky pilots, that finally broke the back of the Hun.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-82585858142577255172009-02-11T07:06:00.000-07:002009-02-11T07:06:00.000-07:00Ael -You're right that the "little thing that happ...Ael -<BR/>You're right that the "little thing that happened in the Pacific" was a relatively insignificant event but it had one HUGE side-effect, it brought the US in as a supplier to the Soviet Union.<BR/><BR/>The weapons we sent them weren't the important thing, it was the trucks, food, and rail equipment that freed up tremendous Soviet resources and kept the Germans from being able to force a stalemate.<BR/><BR/>In spite of that, the Russians were REALLY scraping the bottom of the manpower barrel by 1945 and would have been completely out if the war had persisted another year. The Soviet generals used men the way American generals use ammunition. The only problem is that it takes much less time to make ammunition than it takes to make men...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-18095951426331924172009-02-10T21:02:00.000-07:002009-02-10T21:02:00.000-07:00Actually, the battle of Moscow had a very clear tu...Actually, the battle of Moscow had a very clear turning point. From December 5th where Zhukov had pulled *58* divisions out of his hat(or perhaps somewhere lower down) to December 19, when Hitler fired von Brauchitsch, the war had changed. No more blitzkrieg, it was now a grinding fight to the bitter end (with *Hitler* as generalissimo)<BR/><BR/>Even the little something that happened in the pacific during that time period wasn't as significant.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-36961463543420295562009-02-10T20:56:00.000-07:002009-02-10T20:56:00.000-07:00Re: the Battle of Moscow - I see your point in tha...Re: the Battle of Moscow - I see your point in that December 5-7, 1941 seems to be considered the point where <I>Barbarossa</I> comes to a halt and the long, slow march to Berlin begins.<BR/><BR/>December next year, how 'bout that?<BR/><BR/>Helluva fight. I always chuckle a little at how we make such a deal out of D-Day and the Bulge and that. Compared to what was going on east of the Elbe, our little sideshow was purely for the entertainment value...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-23379095388794435272009-02-10T20:25:00.000-07:002009-02-10T20:25:00.000-07:00Ael, mike: I have to agree with you on the decisiv...Ael, mike: I have to agree with you on the decisiveness of the Battle of Moscow, with the caveat that the real "decisive" factors involved were 1) the German unpreparedness for fighting a winter campaign and 2) the willingness of the Soviets to keep fighting with the enemy in the suburbs of their capital. So there wasn't a "decisive battle" in the sense of a Waterloo-type engagement where the course of history changed in a day or a week. But Hitler's failure before Moscow doomed <I>Barbarossa</I> in much the same way that failing to bring the Czar to sue for peace while standing within the Kremlin doomed the preceding imperial invader...<BR/><BR/>Mike: Yeah, Clement was a sleazy old bastard wasn't he? But, then, the entirety of Italian politics at the time was pretty nasty. Machivelli, who we think of as the ultimate shiv-in-the-back schemer was a noble innocent compared to people like Gucciardini. Really, I can't imagine a more dysfunctional bunch of rulers as the Italian petty nobility of the Renaissance until...well, until our past President and his gang of idiots.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-45050268978327009042009-02-10T19:32:00.000-07:002009-02-10T19:32:00.000-07:00Historian Barbara Tuchman claimed that the instiga...Historian Barbara Tuchman claimed that the instigator was Pope Clement VII. Clement, the former Giulio de' Medici, was infamous as one of the Renaissance Six that triggered the Reformation. He was allied with the Emperor, yet entered into a secret deal with King Francis, inviting him to take all of Italy except for the Papal States and his hometown of Florence. <BR/><BR/>The Emperor found out about the double dealing, hence the battle of Pavia. A year later Clement did some additional double dealing with France absolving King Francis of keeping his pledge to the Emperor and encouraging him to return to Italy. <BR/><BR/>So the Spanish/Hapsburg armies returned. Most of Italy was racked by violence and eventually starvation. And in 1527 they sacked Rome. A strange sight it must have been for good Spanish Catholic tercios to be seen strutting side by side with Lutheran Landsknechte at St Peter's in stolen papal robes and regalia. <BR/><BR/>Looting the Vatican was the smallest of the indignities. Rioting troops went house to house throughout Rome robbing, burning, torturing. All women were violated, and nuns were sold into brothels. This was the end result of the battle of Pavia.<BR/><BR/>In a side note, I have to agree with AEL. In talking of Hitler's Eastern front, almost everybody talks about Stalingrad being the turning point. But for my money it was the Battle Moscow, a year earlier. Although, like the French over a century earlier, the Russian Winter was an important factor, but not he only one. Good catch, AEL!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-6529083557532905652009-02-10T16:22:00.000-07:002009-02-10T16:22:00.000-07:00I'm surprised that you didn't mention the most imp...I'm surprised that you didn't mention the most important winter battle in living history: Moscow 1941.<BR/><BR/>That battle made the red army and shaped the world we see today.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-65149620384404112572009-02-10T11:55:00.000-07:002009-02-10T11:55:00.000-07:00Pluto: The point about the Papacy and Luther is re...Pluto: The point about the Papacy and Luther is really important, and yet I don't often see it raised. The Holy See didn't turn to seeling indulgences because Jesus told them it was a good idea. They turned to selling indulgences because the cash bought Swiss pikemen and German handgunners. When you look at it that way, the whole ugly schism and everything leading from it (I'm thinking Thirty Years' War, etc.) had as much to do with the politics of Renaissance Italy as the theologic differences between a German monk and the Holy Father.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-60634826175771735932009-02-10T11:47:00.000-07:002009-02-10T11:47:00.000-07:00Well done, as usual. The only thing I can add is ...Well done, as usual. The only thing I can add is to point out that the Italian city-states looked like rich, tasty, little prizes during the Renesaince and that added fuel to the French desire to own or influence them.<BR/><BR/>The fact of the matter was that the city-states tended to ride the ragged edge of disaster and were constantly being extorted by various forces or risk being wiped out or excommunicated. <BR/><BR/>The Papacy was heavily influenced by these continual "your money or your life" shake-downs and eventually degenerated to the point where Martin Luther had to speak up and we ALL know what kind of trouble that caused!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-29093496222864717712009-02-10T09:39:00.000-07:002009-02-10T09:39:00.000-07:00Nicely covered Chief.And I would have to agree, th...Nicely covered Chief.<BR/>And I would have to agree, the only ones who came out of that mess ahead of the game was the Spanish.<BR/>I believe Pavia is where the Spainish Conquistadors earned the reputation as being the only ones to have defeated the Swiss Hedge...and it seems to an extent to be somewhat true.<BR/>(I've never studied the battle myself, only the Spainish Conquista and their colonizations of the new world).<BR/>On a side note, however, the whole mess about the Holy Roman Empire was less about being Roman, and more about who had claim to the title of Emperor, and head of the Church (From what I've read, it seems the pope was appointed by the Emperor, and reliant on the Emperor as a patron).<BR/>It was a title many a European prince fancied for himself, and thereby, the title carried with it some weight. <BR/>But the actual meat of the title seems to have waned quite a bit in terms of religious authority in the church after the Salian dynasty came to an end. <BR/>Of which, I would reckon, Henry V could blame his father Henry IV for not leaving him much to work with in regards to the title of Holy Roman Emperor.<BR/>For the Germans, Canossa will always be a bitter pill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com