tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post6650594788818577280..comments2024-03-29T05:41:35.119-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Battles that Changed History; Little Bighorn 1876FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-41177591804733420472012-03-03T08:43:43.053-07:002012-03-03T08:43:43.053-07:00I have no idea who has been posting all the "...I have no idea who has been posting all the "Custer was betrayed" stuff just lately, but I will simply say that yeah, yeah, we've heard all that before. If the guy was all that why didn't his brilliant plan work? You go with the troops you have, not the troops you want. If Reno and Benteen are such fuckups why give them independent commands and then come up with a brilliant "plan" that depends on them doing things that - being the cowardly fuckups you insist they were - they couldn't have done on their best day with a shiny new copper penny?<br /><br />Nope. Sorry. Custer was just another light colonel who misunderstood the situation and whose luck just ran out.<br /><br />And who's getting all weepy about the injuns? Are you trying to one-up the dead? BOTH sides were savages to each other; as you brilliantly conclude, "war is war".<br /><br />Except in this case WE are the invaders; we are shiking them out of their homeland, we're the ones coming around looking for trouble; we are Osama bin Laden, they are the Twin Towers; we are Hitler, they are Poland.<br /><br />I'm perfectly OK with the reality that my ancestors fucked over the Red Man, and don't feel the need to try and make a case for their being hard-done-by Good Guys; sometimes people do fucked up things and profit from it. As I said in the post - had the Cheyenne gotten the guns, germs, and steel they'd have gleefully done to the white man what my ancestors did to them.<br /><br />History is what it is, and IMO our best approach is to try and see it for the lessons it provides, rather than spin it as a way to make ourselves feel better about how cool we are and were. You may interpret this as you choose.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-18776908894934870922012-02-27T17:38:22.191-07:002012-02-27T17:38:22.191-07:00Capt. Thomas Weir pleaded with Capt. Benteen to go...Capt. Thomas Weir pleaded with Capt. Benteen to go and support Custer, when he finally decided to take his Company [M], he only made it to "Weir Point" .. it was too late ..<br />if Capt Benteen went when Henry Reed (GAC nephew) and Boston Custer (GAC brother) did, they could have gotten through as they did, and could have executed flanking positions with a crossfire ..<br />the fact that the Indians could not take Custer's men quickly adds credibility that two forces with using military strategy could make a stand-off/draw ..<br />note: two separate positions are a superior tactic then doubling one position (difficult to flank)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-6663564958893234692011-08-09T21:24:07.371-07:002011-08-09T21:24:07.371-07:00One needs to study Rorkes drift and Islawanda batt...One needs to study Rorkes drift and Islawanda battles of 1879. The LaDrang Valley in 65, and the next day's march to LZ X-ray.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-82336802134622700772011-07-10T19:26:47.680-07:002011-07-10T19:26:47.680-07:00Chief -
It was very crowded in July. Go early, e...Chief -<br /><br />It was very crowded in July. Go early, early summer and plan on doing your hiking from site to site in the early AM.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-60547883600847541562011-07-08T23:08:41.318-07:002011-07-08T23:08:41.318-07:00mike: I plan to get there someday, I hope in early...mike: I plan to get there someday, I hope in early summer about the same time as the old fight.<br /><br />And I love to hear white men bitch about stuff like Indian casinos. Yeah, sucks to be you, eh, white-eyes? I guess the redskins should be thankful that they got a friggin' casino and some fry bread...<i>in exchange for the whole friggin' country!</i> Dumbasses.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-62581876166404583702011-07-07T20:15:45.703-07:002011-07-07T20:15:45.703-07:00A fine analysis, Chief. I myself though am of the...A fine analysis, Chief. I myself though am of the 'Custer-was-an-idiot' school.<br /><br />I did have the opportunity last summer to stop at the LBH Battlefield. We were travelling to the east coast to see in-laws and just happened to see the sign off of Interstate 90. Wasn't going to stop because as I said above Custer was never my hero. But we needed gas and coffee so stopped. Glad we did. Standing on the actual terrain brings a lot to the picture. <br /><br />It is still on the Crow Reservation and the only place to get lunch, coffee and souvenirs was at a Crow trading post. Did my heart good to see all the redneck tourists grumbling about the high-priced fry bread and Indian stew on the menu. Great to see them, the Crows, adopting euro-American practice of milking the pilgrims. There were quite a few Crow and Arikara names on headstones at the National Cemetery which covers all wars.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-75875953597956356262011-07-03T07:43:13.408-07:002011-07-03T07:43:13.408-07:00Chief,
From the pics and the topo of the battlefie...Chief,<br />From the pics and the topo of the battlefield istm that Keogh would have organized on the military crest , if he had the ability or luxery to do so.<br />As he set his defense the Indians could sweep down hill on him, which is always a bad thing.<br />As a soldier i think his element was running and fighting until they realized that they were decisively engaged, at which time they went to ground and sold out as dearly as they could.<br />Myles was a fine officer.<br />jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-20372137428266786652011-07-02T16:00:22.824-07:002011-07-02T16:00:22.824-07:00The other thing that bears on this is that in open...The other thing that bears on this is that in open order - that is, maneuvering offensively - even a leader like Keogh can only influence the nearest couple of guys around him. But in a defense a good officer can do a lot more to keep the guys' heads' up and firing.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-49791300770838007242011-07-02T15:58:21.830-07:002011-07-02T15:58:21.830-07:00jim: The Keogh bio makes me a little more confiden...jim: The Keogh bio makes me a little more confident that his wing was maneuvering in open order when they were overrun. A smart, experienced ACW officer would certainly know how to organize a dismounted defense and given the disparity in firepower should have been able to sicken the Sioux and Cheyenne enough to last longer than an hour, at least.<br /><br />I think that his last thought was probably something like "What the...fuck <i>THIS</i>...!" as the dog soldiers came boiling up out of the ravines and took down his L Company skirmish line while half of C Company bolted for it.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-42296192190301616622011-07-02T02:36:51.774-07:002011-07-02T02:36:51.774-07:00I remember a Twilight Zone episode about a tank cr...I remember a Twilight Zone episode about a tank crew who find themselves transported back in time and place to LBH. They leave their vehicle, grab their rifles and hoof it to help Custer out.<br />I live less than a half-day's drive from Commanche, Keogh's horse.<br />The link:<br />http://www.garryowen.com/comanche2.htm<br /><br />bbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-81813838603834511092011-07-01T20:16:07.241-07:002011-07-01T20:16:07.241-07:00A great read. Someday when I retire I'm going ...A great read. Someday when I retire I'm going to come back and read the whole series.srvnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-19759282648557802352011-07-01T08:50:21.305-07:002011-07-01T08:50:21.305-07:00Chief,
Just a little trip down the backstreets of ...Chief,<br />Just a little trip down the backstreets of history. <br />While doing a little research on Spensers/Burnsides and Buford at Gettysburg a little fact popped up.<br />Myles Keogh was an aide to Buford and was a faithful officer and well breveted thru out the CW.<br />He was used to desperate defensive as well as offensive fights. His element was destroyed at LBH, but they had appropriate leadership at his level.<br />Just a little fact that bears on your historical section.<br />I found this AFTER i did my cmts which haven't been printed yet.<br />jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-30465567734287116892011-06-30T09:00:07.707-07:002011-06-30T09:00:07.707-07:00Chief and tag,
There's some speculation that t...Chief and tag,<br />There's some speculation that the nomad tribes were less stricken by imported diseases b/c they had less exposure and were more remote. The larger Mississpi river cities actually disappeared after exposure.<br />Some theorize that the survivors actually become the nomadic tribes.<br />The eastern tribes also interbred more readily than the western tribes. As a result their leaders often had a foot in both camps, ergo they understood the whites.This often affected their leadership and treaties.<br />Whether east or west all the NA's got the tube steak.<br />jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-22985669891257177062011-06-29T20:05:25.608-07:002011-06-29T20:05:25.608-07:00tagryn: Point well taken, and I should revise that...tagryn: Point well taken, and I should revise that statement. The combination of epidemic disease and agriculture surely doomed the tribes, even if they had managed of form some sort of continent-spanning confederation. Their only hope might have been to have adopted the white's methods AND hoped for a caesura in the western expansion, and the latter almost certainly wouldn't have happened, even if the natives had managed a sort of Meiji Restoration-level industrialization all on their own.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-88963929988103903002011-06-29T19:29:56.281-07:002011-06-29T19:29:56.281-07:00My only dispute, and its a minor one, would be you...My only dispute, and its a minor one, would be your last point as to whether the Plains tribes' lack of nationhood made much of a difference. The Iroquois Confederacy provides one example of Native American tribes working together under a larger framework, so it wasn't totally unknown for some NA to operate this way, yet in the end it made little difference against the overwhelming forces of demographics and technology the natives were facing. <br /><br />Even if the Plains tribes could have formed something like the Confederacy - which is a big "if" considering their nomadic lifestyle and the distances involved - I can't conceive that it would have made that much of a dent in the western expansion. Even ten Little Big Horns would have at best imposed a temporary delay on what was to come.tagrynhttp://tagryn.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-90076650005615757352011-06-29T07:44:10.258-07:002011-06-29T07:44:10.258-07:00Chief,
I'm in the barrel now.
Today i'll d...Chief,<br />I'm in the barrel now.<br />Today i'll do a dual comment-one cmt on your exhaustive art, and one ATTEMPTING to equate this battle to the PWOT. <br />Pls bear in mind that this will be simply comment and a footnote to your work. A work that is beyond my ability to equal.<br />But i'm on the scent now.<br />jim<br />btw - my word verification this morn is INGINS.Is that funny or what?!<br />jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-77040080139382679512011-06-28T10:06:13.938-07:002011-06-28T10:06:13.938-07:00DF: I've always thought that the fourth throug...DF: I've always thought that the fourth through the sixth Henries were something of a mess. Bad as R2 was it might have been better for England if he'd been left alone.<br /><br />jim: It looks as though someone chiseled out a line that claimed that the OP was named by the scouts that morning "because there was a crow's nest there"; I'm guessing that either a local or a history buff had better information or just disagreed with the statement and rubbed it out.<br /><br />---------<br /><br />BTW, folks; I wanted to note that this article is the first of a two-part essay on LBH, the second being jim's thoughts on the events of June, 1876. I sent him the original post very late and he's working on his material now, but I hope to have it up here soon and am convinced that he'll give us much more to think about.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-78385116921042098242011-06-28T06:20:44.711-07:002011-06-28T06:20:44.711-07:00Chief,
You've out done yourself with this arti...Chief,<br />You've out done yourself with this article.<br />Do you know why the Crows Nest marker appears to be defaced-the first line looks chiseled off of it.<br />jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-23845046632207676812011-06-28T03:10:19.075-07:002011-06-28T03:10:19.075-07:00I'd agree with you re Bosworth. The most inter...I'd agree with you re Bosworth. The most interesting period for me is after Henry Bolingbroke deposes Richard II. Despite having pretty good personal reasons to depose Richard, and in overthrowing a tyrannical ruler being backed by a lot of popular support, he meets opposition in the form of assassination attempts, rebellions & invasions from the outset of his succession, many of them following one after another. I'm sure there are lessons in crisis management & strategy there. Though it didn't stop him being eventually usurped by his son Henry V.Don Francisconoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-62420787225248817302011-06-27T15:34:30.014-07:002011-06-27T15:34:30.014-07:00DF: I'd argue that the only one that did, in t...DF: I'd argue that the only one that did, in the end, was Bosworth, in that it put an end to the Plantagenets and brought in the Tudors and more than time it was, too, since Henry II's brood and their descendents really were a right fucking mess, many of them. Not that the Tudors were saints, but after the chaos of the Angevins and then the bloody York-Lancaster feud, well...<br /><br />And I should note that even after 1485 the Yorkists wouldn't lie down. Henry VII had to do a good bit of fighting and executing before the Tudors could safely ignore the pesky bastards. Even his son had to deal with some continuing unrest.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-40384863032895829172011-06-27T12:22:50.113-07:002011-06-27T12:22:50.113-07:00Another cracking article chief, stick with the (no...Another cracking article chief, stick with the (not) decisive battles/battles that interest me theme, it's proving v popular with the crowd.<br /><br />I like the suggestions made by others, could be some good reading. If I can make my suggestions - the English War of the Roses. Big, voilent battles, decisive for the nobles involved, but for the rest of country, did it make any difference at all?Don Francisconoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-82948035141308631442011-06-27T06:54:43.180-07:002011-06-27T06:54:43.180-07:00Ael: I've thought about several of the battles...Ael: I've thought about several of the battles from the Japanese feudal period, but I think the one I will write up this September is the Battle of Shiroyama, 1877. It has it all; Samurai, cannon, seppuku, Tom Cruise...(wait, no, sorry).<br /><br />Leon: The Winter War has some good stuff, but you're right in that the 1944 battles of the Continuation War were truly critical in saving an independent Finland. I think I might writeup the Battle of Ilomantsi for July this year. Great story, with the Finns bitchslapping the Soviet bear...again.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-47077413458096949542011-06-26T21:20:32.123-07:002011-06-26T21:20:32.123-07:00Hi Chief, nice article. I agree that most of the &...Hi Chief, nice article. I agree that most of the "decisive" battles have been covered now. Maybe it's time to change this to "Battles That Interest Me". <br /><br />My understanding of 'Custer's Last Stand' comes from John Keegan's book "Fields of Battle: The Wars for North America". He follows John Gray who thinks Custer continued to attack, even when getting information that the number of natives was much larger, confident that firepower and discipline would prevail. By the time he realized that this was too many aboriginals for he units firepower to stop, it was too late. <br /><br />Gray thinks Custer tried to form a defensive position at the best terrain Custer had (which it wasn't) but was far too wide for his command. This left a thin defensive line that would never be able to put out the volume of fire to suppress the warriors. Eventually they found weak-points and gaps, broke through and history takes it's sorry end.<br /><br />Actually I'd also recommend looking at battles that are significant in some way but are oft-overlooked for various reasons. I seem to remember you covered one of the battles of the Russo-Finnish war (I may be wrong, I couldn't find it in your archives). If not, mayhaps Tali-Ilhantala, the battle that saved Finland from becoming a Soviet satellite. Or maybe something more ancient: Zama, Alesia, etc...Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-10718650278474117362011-06-26T21:09:46.842-07:002011-06-26T21:09:46.842-07:00Thanks kindly Chief, I always enjoy your articles...Thanks kindly Chief, I always enjoy your articles. <br /><br />Have you considered writing about the Battle of Sekigahara? It is an interesting battle where the maneuvering (in the largest sense) before the battle was extremely important.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-30101343650597460892011-06-26T18:23:55.840-07:002011-06-26T18:23:55.840-07:00I think I wrote about this in the "battle&quo...I think I wrote about this in the "battle" for March, Pancho Villa's raid on Columbus; I've gotten to the point where I'm running out of "decisive" battles that interest me (I just don't want to write about, say, Fontenoy) or that I have anything of value to contribute (I have nothing to say about Stalingrad that hasn't been said a jillion times over, so what would be the point?). So I've started writing about battles that just interest me, or ones that had an impact far out of proportion with the actual engagement itself (like Columbus) or, as in this case, have taken on a life of their own outside the historical facts of the engagement.<br /><br />That last is where the LBH falls; there's a "mythic" LBH that was created almost immediately after the battle ended that endures to this day, and resists any attempt to revisit the sort of combat actions that would have resulted in the deaths of over 200 soldiers in 45 minutes with minimal loss to their enemies.<br /><br />So for this one, it's the "controversial" part that interests me. In terms of effect on the white conquest of NA, not even a speed bump - more like grit under the tires.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.com