tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post7669817596486985526..comments2024-03-21T14:41:14.622-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: Battles that Changed History; Columbus, 1916FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-9706913234151507032011-04-12T12:24:14.284-07:002011-04-12T12:24:14.284-07:00DF, Pluto; What has always interested me is the as...DF, Pluto; What has always interested me is the asymmetry involved. About 99% of U.S. citizens neither know nor care much about Mexico other than as an excuse to get bombed on margaritas on Cinco de Mayo. The immense effects of the U.S. incursions into Mexico beginning with 1845 but including the events of the Teens (Tampico and the Punitive Expedition) on the Mexican collective memory are as invisible as plastic wrap and just as effective at separating the U.S. public from any understanding of why Mexico and Mexicans are so touchy about the Colossus of the North.<br /><br />I've believed for some time now that one of the worst effects of our current entertainments in central Asia is the diversion of public time, interest, and involvement in the business going on to our hemispheric South. There's a lot of potential for instability there, and a failed state or two in Latin or South America has the potential to make Al Qaeda look like a playful imaginary friend by comparison.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-46869504856055206822011-04-08T09:35:19.465-07:002011-04-08T09:35:19.465-07:00I like the battle this month. Wasn't sure wha...I like the battle this month. Wasn't sure what to think about it first. But the more I think about it, the more I realize how important it is to the US-Mexican relationship; which is constantly getting more and more important to us.Plutonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-5610221333177192502011-04-07T12:06:43.102-07:002011-04-07T12:06:43.102-07:00I'm going to echo Mike's last comment, you...I'm going to echo Mike's last comment, you've really got me interested in this period and conflict, one I've never paid much attention to before. Good work!Don Francisconoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-132797885649657892011-04-07T10:11:42.104-07:002011-04-07T10:11:42.104-07:00Wow Chief, you have really piqued my interest. I ...Wow Chief, you have really piqued my interest. I need to put a biography of Obregon on my reading list. Norman Zollinger's book had cast Obregon in an unflattering light who betrayed land reform as an ally of the huge landowners. But that was fictional and he being an American was probably swept up with fever for the assassinated ones, Villa and Zapata.<br /><br />I hope also to pick up a copy John Eisenhower's book "Intervention" on the Mexican Revolution. But he seems to cover only the period of 1913 to 1917 so probably does not report anything on Amblos Nogales. He did do a good job though on his bio of Winfield Scott, I thought. <br /><br />It is amazing to me that wiki lists 13 different factions during that Revolution. Like most gringos I knew of the Villistas, Zapatistas, and Carranzistas. But the other ten make it sound pretty Byzantine. No wonder that Revolution lasted so many years. I hope the Libyan revolutionaries are not as factionalized, but have my doubts.<br /><br />And perhaps I will try to find an English language copy of a bio of Lazaro Cardenas, the former Mexican prez, who according to wiki fought in the trenches at Agua Prieta against Villa. He was apparently also the guy who founded PEMEX by nationalizing Shell and Standard Oil assets back in the thirties, long before it was done in the middle east.<br /><br />So much history, so little time to read it all. I should stop interspersing trash novels in between my reads of non-fiction. Or maybe not.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-57251200488981527772011-04-06T22:21:27.614-07:002011-04-06T22:21:27.614-07:00And Villa did not have any Germans with him - and ...And Villa did not have any Germans with him - and probably wouldn't have heeded them if he had. He was a swashbuckler through-and-through.<br /><br />It's worth noting that a letter warning about the German assistance to the Mexican Army and a supposed attack helped fuel the tensions that resulted in Ambos Nogales...and was supposedly from a Villaista source. Ol' Pancho playing the enemy-of-my-enemy game, eh?FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-29376642219625569322011-04-06T22:18:35.236-07:002011-04-06T22:18:35.236-07:00The Mexican army did have some German advisers, an...The Mexican army did have some German advisers, and they are recorded as having taken part in the "Battle of Ambos Nogales in 1918 (when they were actively at war with the U.S., obviously). The Germans wanted to bring the U.S. in against the Entente, and failing that, to keep them neutral. I've always thought that the Zimmermann Note was a case of the hawks reading into it what they wanted. It isn't a plan for an attack on the U.S.; it says that Germany is going to resume submarine attacks and assumes this will probably mean the U.S. will respond by siding with the Entente, in which case the German intelligence and diplomatic people in the Americas need to try and bring Mexico in against the U.S. to reduce its impact in Europe.<br /><br />That seems like a sensible and prudent course for a belligerent, and if I had been the Kaiser I would have wanted my diplomats to be doing just that. That the interventionists in the U.S. read it as a hostile act says more about the war-fever in the U.S. than the activity of German actors in the western hemisphere.<br /><br />Anyway, everything I've read suggests that Obregon was a hell of a good officer and his defensive tactics at Celaya and elsewhere were the result of his own study of the fighting on the Western Front and not something he was handed by some German advisor. Dude was a vicious SOB but a hell of a cool, cunning SOB...very un-Mexican in that respect.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-26829709100557794822011-04-06T13:14:50.102-07:002011-04-06T13:14:50.102-07:00Chief -
Yes - I did see Ridgway's memoirs at ...Chief -<br /><br />Yes - I did see Ridgway's memoirs at Powell's, but turned it down as I tend to stay away from autobiographical works unless there is nothing else available. I will have to bite the bullet and go to the internet to order his bio. <br /><br />Also, I wonder what influence that Germany had with the Carranzistas? There are some websites I found this AM that suggested an Austrian military advisor working with Obregon at Celaya. No mention of something similar at Agua Prieta. Hmmmm, prelude to Zimmerman cable??? But of course, Carranza turned down Zimmerman's offer. There may have been some suspicion at the time that Villa had German advice prior to Columbus, although that seems farfetched.<br /><br />mikemikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-2091605952506420122011-04-05T21:07:08.005-07:002011-04-05T21:07:08.005-07:00Leon: Thanks!
mike: And a hell of a lot that'...Leon: Thanks!<br /><br />mike: And a hell of a lot that's going on today in Mexico began during the 1910-1920 Revolution. If you want to understand Mexico (and I don't pretend to have a truly good understanding of that complex land) the Revolution is a good place to start.<br /><br />Grant and Lee, too; most of the commanders of our Civil War were junior officers in Mexico back in the Forties.<br /><br />Osan is this year's Battle That Changed History (that's a really unwieldy term - I need to find something slicker) for July. I'm going to try and get that written up ASAP so jim from Ranger Against War can work with me on it.<br /><br />Ridgway has been badly neglected by literature. He has an autobiography that appears to be out of print, and there's a recent (2002) biography that seems to be mediocre. Of the two I might try the bio first; Ridgway notoriously shut down after the death of his son early in his life, and the autobio was written in '57, before his role in Vietnam.<br /><br />Don Francisco: Villa was a cavalryman of the old school; all nerve and aggression. He probably didn't really think much about the consequences of raiding the U.S. in force and, if he did, he probably figured he would deal with the gringos like he did the Carranzistas; evade them when they were strong, kill them when they were weak. His men needed the food, clothing, weapons, ammo, and money there in Columbus. My guess is that he figured he would throw the dice and trust to his luck; so, I think it was pretty much chance, and aggression.<br /><br />His failure was a combination of his inability to think outside the cavalry raid box combined with atrocious reconnaissance. The man was a hell of a combat leader but utterly lacking in the military skills he needed for 1916. He'd have been a worldbeater in 1816, but his failure to understand logistics, supply, and the technical details of his trade doomed his men to the slaughters of Celaya and Agua Prieta...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-86432583570720236812011-04-05T12:08:25.810-07:002011-04-05T12:08:25.810-07:00Another great article chief, interesting change in...Another great article chief, interesting change in direction of your articles (battles that didn't change history?). <br /><br />My impression given your piece is that from Villa's point of view it was worth the risk, and wasn't deterred by the thought of the US coming after him, or by his forces tactical inferiority. Was it reckless? Perhaps he thought he could avoid US retribution and let the focus fall on the rest of Mexico, or maybe he was simply prepared to take a chance and lose. <br /><br />Certainly makes me reflect on your liberal friends point, though we might consider certain behaviour senseless or irrational, doesn't mean to say that everyone does, conflict is not rational.Don Francisconoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-49758179796645534692011-04-05T11:58:25.866-07:002011-04-05T11:58:25.866-07:00PS - I applaud your movement towards battles that ...PS - I applaud your movement towards battles that perhaps are less 'decisive' in a particular war but still critical in historical value. Viva la transformacion!<br /><br />PPS - What happened to the battle of Osan you mentioned awhile back? Did I miss it when visiting my grandkids? I looked for a bio of Ridgway when I visited Powell's in your fair city after your last post on Korea. I struck out on Ridgway, but fortunately I came home with bios of Farragut and Foch, Hornfischer's 'Ship of Ghosts' on the USS Houston, and several of Alan Furst's spy novels. A good trip since I also stopped downtown at 'Hillbilly Bento' and got some unbeatable takeout box dinners.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-59251672018374071532011-04-05T11:32:14.950-07:002011-04-05T11:32:14.950-07:00This post was extremely interesting, Chief. When ...This post was extremely interesting, Chief. When are you going to publish all of your previously posted battles on hardcopy a la Sir Edward Creasey??<br /><br />My bookcase is bare on Mexico, unless you count a few chapters out of John Eisenhower's biography of Winfield Scott. And I recall reading in the past a historical fiction novel by Zollinger(sp?) on a New Mexican muchacho who rode with Villa at Celaya and Columbus. Not a good source of course, but fascinating reading. I need to do some serious reading on that period of time in Mexican history. They are our neighbors.<br /><br />Amazing that many of our military leaders - Scott, Taylor, Lee, Butler, Lejeune, Pershing, Patton, Macarthur - made their bones in Mexico. Well maybe not Scott and Taylor as their reputations were established in an earlier time. Who have I forgotten?<br /><br />Agua Prieta used to be a big after hours hotspot for Camp Huachuca GIs back in the 60s and 70s. Maybe not so much anymore. Naco just south of Bisbee AZ was also a place to drink rotgut Tequila and dance with teenage senoritas. Bisbee, I think, was Pershing's HQ at one point.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-58545013871688432242011-04-04T15:50:11.063-07:002011-04-04T15:50:11.063-07:00Another great article chief!Another great article chief!Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.com