tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post977004762111198514..comments2024-03-21T14:41:14.622-07:00Comments on Graphic Firing Table: The Brain that Wouldn't DieFDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-29307693917748103692009-11-03T15:16:08.425-07:002009-11-03T15:16:08.425-07:00Ael,
Well, couldn't one argue that our abilit...Ael,<br /><br />Well, couldn't one argue that our ability to be swayed in either case is the same? Not too many people reject propaganda, and most wish to be seen as sociable and well-liked. <br /><br />(As an aside: It is a killing cut when a baby or animal makes the decision that the coo-er is less-than-sincere and runs away or begins howling. That is not the reinforcement we are looking for.)<br /><br />As long as we see some benefit accrue to us (either positive or avoidance of negative), we are game.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-83369355621321589502009-11-02T19:15:51.541-07:002009-11-02T19:15:51.541-07:00As you say Lisa, babies are scary critters. Defor...As you say Lisa, babies are scary critters. Deformed and smelly.<br /><br />If it is mere conditioning that turns us into baby-talking chuckling idiots when presented with a smiling baby then I am amazed at people's ability to resist a dictator's propaganda.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-78270972463931408232009-10-31T09:26:11.512-07:002009-10-31T09:26:11.512-07:00addendum:
"Love thy neighbor" -- just...addendum: <br /><br />"Love thy neighbor" -- just those in our tribe, in proximity? Love all men? If it were a directive to love all, then why the additional proscriptions against murder and coveting, and directions to respect and honor? Love would seem to be the penultimate directive, and if it were intended in an ecumenical sense, it would be the only message necessary.<br /><br />No, I do not think we are born with a loving impulse. Suckling, reliant... "suck-ups" we are, maybe. Call me a cynic...Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-83869380102578963032009-10-31T09:22:20.376-07:002009-10-31T09:22:20.376-07:00Ael,
Seen another way, kittens are not cute -- th...Ael,<br /><br />Seen another way, kittens are not cute -- they really are ferocious killers, all fang and claws, when you think of it. It's just that someone in Egypt decided to revere them, and thought them lovely. But there is no reason they should be any more lovely than, say, a Norwegian rat.<br /><br />We look at things pragmatically: What can they do for us? Cats can rid the barn of mice; rats will eat and contaminate our grains. Bad, dirty rats.<br /><br />Seen another way, human infants are quite scary: Wriggly, pasty things, pupae-like, that excrete smelly stuff all day. Their bodily proportions are odd -- large heads and small bodies. So it is conditioning that causes us to react sympathetically to their need (if we are not pushed to the wall under stress.)<br /><br />I am not a misanthropist, but choose to see things as they are. Much of our behavior is conditioned, and cannot be attributed to inborn affinity. <br /><br />That said, there are certainly instinctual urges, though how much of that is hormonally-regulated we are only now discovering.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-57922721650512788942009-10-30T22:11:51.010-07:002009-10-30T22:11:51.010-07:00Ael: Nah, kittens - and babies - are just cute. B...Ael: Nah, kittens - and babies - are just cute. But there's a lot more to kittens and babies than cuteness. A tomcat will try and kill the kittens of another tom. A man will often find good reasons to ignore, or even injure, kids not his own. The degree to which humans find babies cute in particular rather than in general is proportional to:<br /><br />1. The degree that we have been bred out of our paleolithic loyalties to kin first, clan second, tribe third and everyone else a distant last, and<br /><br />2. How "nice" we are as individuals.<br /><br />I'm not a very nice individual, so I can easily see how ten centuries ago I could have ridden into a village and cheerfully killed every human thing. Not my "tribe", see? My babies? Adorable. Your babies? Another verminous mouth to feed.<br /><br />We live in a very peaceful and sentimental culture, so our natural love and tenderness towards "our" babies has been enhanced to take in babies in general. The cuteness of babies makes a HUGE difference, sure, but in tribal societies the pull of clan and kin trumps that cuteness. We Westerners generally don't have that killer instinct anymore, most of us. Luckily for us.<br /><br />That ties into what Lisa is saying about how much of this tenderness and consideration for others is a learned reflex, and without parents and societies to hammer it home, I think we tend to revert more to type. Sure, we still find babies cute. But just some babies are too cute to hurt - "ours" - while others are just collateral damage.<br /><br />Ask some Germans, Iraqis or Vietnamese how sentimental we were about their kids when we needed not to be...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-8294903218818909652009-10-30T20:15:21.620-07:002009-10-30T20:15:21.620-07:00So, you guys would argue that kittens are "cu...So, you guys would argue that kittens are "cute" because we are culturally instructed to believe it?Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-78416652081016916572009-10-30T19:21:56.711-07:002009-10-30T19:21:56.711-07:00Ael, Lisa: I have read that much of what we think ...Ael, Lisa: I have read that much of what we think of as our "instinct" for nurturing is largely the remnants of tribal or family group. And, as Lisa points out, it is socially sanctioned and expected or even required of us. The study I read noted that reactions to babies between "out" groups; that is, Caucasian adults reacting to Asian or African babies or vice-versa, were often much less nurturing. In the case of pure tribal societies it was common for the men to kill both enemy men and children, probably as a way of vacuuming the gene pool so the next generation would be theirs...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-33856829804744189822009-10-30T11:30:49.215-07:002009-10-30T11:30:49.215-07:00Ael,
I would counter that the "cooing" ...Ael,<br /><br />I would counter that the "cooing" and fawning reaction of which you speak is not "kindness", but a socially sanctioned dotage.<br /><br />It is true the human baby is born very needy and requires much attention, hence we are attuned to those needs. It is even suggested that domestic cats have learned to mewl in such a way as to mimic a baby's distress cries in order to gain attention.<br /><br />It is also true that human males are attracted to the facial dimensions approximating those of a baby, but again, that does not equate to kindness.<br /><br />We could argue that the capacity for kindness is innate, and needs only to be awakened, but at this point that is a philosophical discussion.<br /><br />We agree re. the plasticity of the brain. It'd be nice if more of us used it. . .Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-72519027225359047112009-10-30T09:56:03.682-07:002009-10-30T09:56:03.682-07:00Actually, much of our kindness and generosity *is*...Actually, much of our kindness and generosity *is* genetic.<br /><br />Watch a room of adults when a baby is brought in. That sort of reaction is deeply hard-wired. In fact, it is so hard-wired that things that kinda look like babies (e.g. baby animals) also brings out a strong reaction. <br /><br />However, much of our selfishness is also genetic (and for good reason as I don't believe we could build a society of saints).<br /><br />Luckily, we are very plastic creatures and we can modify our behaviour beyond our genetic predispositions.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-28488314960601518072009-10-30T08:17:12.073-07:002009-10-30T08:17:12.073-07:00I agree -- there is no inborn moral sense. Genero...I agree -- there is no inborn moral sense. Generosity and kindness is taught and witnessed, and sometimes learned.<br /><br />What is inborn is a greediness, born of survival instinct. Some behaviorists suggest an impulse to justice and cooperation, but only based upon maximizing one's own gain. So at best, we are little pragmatists. <br /><br />Kindness as a stand-alone good is taught, or never learned.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-59977153447012607122009-10-30T07:12:02.819-07:002009-10-30T07:12:02.819-07:00It's a contact sport, Meghan. And there's...It's a contact sport, Meghan. And there's no halftime.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-40511591784021516492009-10-29T20:34:00.483-07:002009-10-29T20:34:00.483-07:00Coincidentally, I was watching Bill Cosby's ol...Coincidentally, I was watching Bill Cosby's old standup show "Himself" last night. In it, he convincingly argues that all children are brain damaged. <br /><br />How else can you explain that you tell a child NOT to do something, they immediately do it anyway, often repeatedly. And when you challenge them as to WHY they disobeyed, they say "I doooon't knowwwww..." Ah, parenting. It must require the patience of a person much stronger than I.Meghan Humphreyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07056800058671384571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-19623778804822867652009-10-29T18:01:25.164-07:002009-10-29T18:01:25.164-07:00Pluto: not a bad thing, in a sense. I can bring t...Pluto: not a bad thing, in a sense. I can bring the fear with a word and so I have used it, and now my little man's affection for me is tinged with that fear and may always be. I can live with that, but not like it.<br /><br />Lisa: Sadly, the Peeper is another living proof that reality is not as douce and happy as we'd like it to be. I love reading those Victorian stories about the natural love and kindness of children, of kids as the angels of Nature. But without schooling in empathy many kids - and, as you point out, the adults those kids grow into - are selfish, egocentric little monsters. The take home lesson in parenting for me was that there IS no such thing as an inborn moral sense. We learn it from our elders, parents and mentors.<br /><br />Or we don't. Hence those loathsome men of which you speak.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-37914167541362807232009-10-29T13:09:31.822-07:002009-10-29T13:09:31.822-07:00A well-told tale, the excuse as old as Methuselah:...A well-told tale, the excuse as old as Methuselah: The devil made me do it, or my brain, or some other entity outside of oneself. Many men never learn to own up to their own failings, blaming their spouse for "making them" commit any number of indiscretions. It is loathsome to witness.<br /><br />Good that you are teaching Peeper kindness, a lesson which must sometimes be driven home sternly in a child's egocentric universe.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839236994990699117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-36934301203388196692009-10-29T12:25:18.311-07:002009-10-29T12:25:18.311-07:00We've got a different dynamic in our household...We've got a different dynamic in our household.<br /><br />I'm not very physically impressive (my 16 year old is now an inch taller than me) and I've got the more gentle disposition so I don't really have a situation with automatic fear but the guys learned a long time ago that certain behavior draws certain responses.<br /><br />You have the dubious advantage of being able to punish with a look and a comment, I have to take action to get the same result.Plutonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-41080087879954142692009-10-29T06:54:17.797-07:002009-10-29T06:54:17.797-07:00Pluto, I think the "fear up" my interven...Pluto, I think the "fear up" my intervention produced was a pretty harsh punishment for the boy. And ti his credit, he's been better this week about running his mouth on his mom.<br /><br />He never, never does it with me.<br /><br />It helps maintain order, and yet, it's because he fears me, a little. Yes, he loves me, too, and I hope that as he grows up he'll see that the fear of punishment is a just and sensible fear. But, in all, the fear will always be there when he looks at me and that's kinda hard.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31246093.post-56978251463553871012009-10-29T05:13:49.946-07:002009-10-29T05:13:49.946-07:00A great story brilliantly told.
Every parent ha...A great story brilliantly told. <br /><br />Every parent has been there but it takes great maturity to handle the moment appropriately.<br /><br />I like to think I've done well with my two boys but I know I wouldn't have been quite so lenient as you were. Boys (all children, really) need to learn that actions have consequences.Plutonoreply@blogger.com