"Dear FDChief;
I need a man's HONEST opinion on something....
Do all guys go to see strippers? Do some just not go, either because they just don't like them or out of respect for their woman?
Not that this is happening in the case of my boyfriend, but if it comes up with him am I being completely unrealistic in expecting him to NEVER go to a strip club, like with his buddies??
Because most women don't want their man doing that, but let's face it...they do anyways!
I would rather be honest about it and not have him feel like he needs to hide it from me.......but it's also not a quality I would want in a man...one that goes to strip clubs, you know!?!
Anyways, I would love to hear your perspective when you get the chance.
Thanks,
Stripless in Seattle"
"Dear Stripless;Hmmm.
OK, let's break this down.
First, regardless of whether he goes to the titty bar or not, let me put your mind at ease - YES, he IS checking out her rack. He DOES look at porn. He probably has a fantasy about a tub of Crisco, Sarah Palin, knee socks and a turkey baster.
Or Princess Leia's metal bikini.
Whatever. I hate to tell you this, but we ALL do it. We don't like to tell you about it, but we do.
That is - we do if we love and respect you.
Don't laugh (or shriek, or cry...not sure how you feel about this)! It's true, and there are three kinds of men; the ones who don't because they have the sex drive of a tortoise, those who do and those who lie to you about it.
The thing is we're hardwired for reproduction. Our sexual motto is "More! Better! Faster!" We LIKE the idea of harems, of orgies, or "more than one" – that’s why when we get the law or religion on our side (religion is better – who argues when God says “He gets you and you and you, and you only get him.”?) we give you stuff like...harems, polygamy, orgies... Sorry, but we're that way when we aren't mature enough to control our little head.
That's the whole reason that titty bars and the Internet exist - to cater to our pervy obsession with laying multiple women without actually having to learn their names and stuff.
Those of us who DON'T respect you will just go and DO it - we'll cheat on you, lie to you, and then swagger off without a second thought. We'll give you chlamydia and the clap, get you pregnant and abandon you...we can be utter shits that way. And the malfunction there is US, not you.
Look at this woman; tres hot, no?
Jeri Ryan, spandex-ly-clad alien sexbot from one of the goddam Star Trek shows (and no, I don't remember which one, they're all over the place like fucking hamsters). What's she famous for? Her then-husband wanted her to go to a sex club and get all kinky and/or jiggy with other men.
See what I mean? Christ, it's like our penises are stuffed with Stupid Juice.
It's those of us who really want you, who love your unique and special qualities, who confine ourselves to merely fantasizing and looking.I do it, your boyfriend does it...we do. And I will be the first to admit that it's skeevy...but it's LESS skeevy that being a cheating bastard or a liar or a man-slut.
So. Even if he doesn't go to the Backswing or the Viewpoint or whatever trust me - he's fantasized about his hot third cousin Rachel in her push-up bra.
Are we OK so far?
Now - the titty bar thing. For me, the issue is one of respect. Not so much "respect" in the sense of "abandoning me for another woman" - like I said - he thinks about other women already. But if he loves and respects you, that's ALL he does.
No, the titty bar thing to me is about lacking respect for you by spending time he could be spending with you with some skeevy tattooed dancer.
It's one thing to spend that five minutes sipping his coffee and watching the pretty girls, or peeking at "alt.binaries.brunettes" while checking the e-mail - it's another to spend a whole evening stuffing twenties into some skank's undies when he could be a) getting his own personal table dance from you, and b) spending that money on a nice bottle of wine for you (or the movies or whatever...).I had a friend who used to do this all the time - go right from work to some nasty strip club and hang over the railing for hours. And this guy had a really smart wife (who had sweater puppies that would have made those skinny hags' run screaming for cover!) - I once suggested to him in a sort of nasty way that his wife had a gorgeous rack, and if he asked her nice she might even dance for him if he'd shove some of that money in her scanties.
He didn't get it.
I, personally, don't like the money-for-nothing atmosphere in the places, I don't like wasting time there (on some woman who probably either pities or despises me) that I could be spending with my family...but I do understand that sometimes a guy's pals arm-wrestle him into going, and he has to go to be a pal.
In a case like that, I'd hope he would call you and say "Aww, shit, honey, Joey and the guys are all about this strip place. I'll try and not look, OK?" and you could both laugh about it.
Or - if he was REALLY slick - he'd call you and nod, and smile, and then shut the phone and turn to the buddies and say; "Gee, boys' I'd love to - but my girl says she's got a new routine that involves two parrots that peck away at an outfit that's made of nothing but balloons, so I'll see you tomorrow at work, 'K?"And then he'd come over - and you WOULD!
So here's a free bit of relationship advice:
One wonderful thing we love is when our lover becomes that "someone else" for us. Whether you dance for him and keep your hat on - and nothing else...or wear a blond wig and sing "Cabaret"...
...or try seducing him with a funny accent...or parrots and balloons. That way we can be in love with you - AND scratch that little polygamous itch we all have...
And remember - this works both ways. What's fantasy sauce for the gander is perfectly good for the saucy goose when HE gets to provide YOU with the same service. He's not the only one with desires, right?
So go out there and break a leg, Stripperella!
FDChief
18 comments:
Chief,
I won't touch this with a 10 foot pole.
jim
No problem - that's why we're here. The FDC provides solutions to all sorts of calls for fire, from foreign policy to advice for the strip-lorn. Ubique! as the Royal Artillery would say.
Chief,
I recently met a former topless dancer from the Circus Lounge at Fatalburg.Circa 69/70, god darned was she old looking.
jim
Jim: Most of the girls I knew in Fayettenam lived pretty hard. I would be surprised if I met one today - she'd have to be 55-60 now - who didn't look pretty rode hard.
Like I said, I really don't enjoy the hardcore "fool-and-his-money" vibe in most strip clubs. The only place I've ever been in that was OK was a place called the Calico Cat here in Portland. Funny place - all the patrons were locals, all the dancers knew everyone, it was like a neighborhood bar except all the women wore nothing but shoes and a G-string.
But that was an exception. In most strip clubs I felt like a live ATM, with the girls there to press my buttons and get the cash out.
The props and plays you suggest are all good and well (and should be quid pro quo) but don't amount to a hill of beans if there is not love and affection. It is all just so much gymnastics, like the pole girls who will kindly take your $20.
Shows and plays ain't gonna make nothin' any better if there's nothing there but a wish to hump and slaver.
I don't need to know your fantasies; I just wanna see what you intend for me. I have learned that what you see is what you get. Catering to the illusion will not build anything great if one or both partners are arrested.
Trust and honesty are at the core of every good relationship, so when this trust is compromised, the relationship is already broken. There is no 'one time' mistake with cheating, but a lack of respect and commitment to that partner.
add-on,
I think you're speaking from the married man's p.o.v.
For me to play the little games you suggest, I must feel safe and secure, loved and known. If I do not even feel reassured for my ownself, why would I produce a little show for him, and give him a two-fer? He hasn't even paid the ticket price at Circus-Circus.
Are you suggesting that this sort of dog-and-pony show will endear him and make him grow closer in an uncommitted relationship? If so, I am sad to hear that. If he wishes to see me in pretty scanties, he can bring me some pretty and comfy ones (yes! they exist.)
In myself, I am everything a MAN would want, which is saying no more than I am authentically me. But what if that man has a porno addiction (as you suggest many do)? Than I really remove myself from genuine participation by putting on the wig and mask.
You like 80's songs. They sell us a bill of goods:
"You're my obsession -- who do you want me to be, to make you sleep with me?'
"'cause I'm, gonna make you see, there's nobody else here, no one like me, I'm special, so special
I gotta have some of your attention"
For me, play grows out of comfort, and offers an antidote to staleness.
Anon: Married or just regular partners, yes, of course we're dealing with two people who are more than just a casual encounter. There is no need for understanding of kinks and fantasies there - the entire deal is a kink or a fantasy.
And trust me, I have no interest in speculating about the degree and nature of the love and committment here. This is PURELY about us men and our propensity for quantity over quality.
The correspondent was asking about her partner and the implications of his taking in a girlie show. That's all we're dealing with here...
"Are you suggesting that this sort of dog-and-pony show will endear him and make him grow closer in an uncommitted relationship?"
Not at all. I'm suggesting that our sexual lives are as complex as our emotional ones, and that an occasional "dog-and-pony show" can be fun for both, it that's what both parties enjoy.
Would you want to eat vanilla pudding for every meal? Would you want to do the same thing with the same person every time all the time for the rest of your lives?
Variety is not just the spice of life, it can be a spice to one's sex life, if both parties agree and enjoy it. I realize this isn't rocket science, but my correspondent had really had a very sheltered life and really did equate her man's random venture out to the topless bars with unfaithfulness.
I was trying to reassure her that 1) he can and could still love her and roll his eye at another women and 2) that just because you're in a committed relationship DOESN'T mean that you can stop trying to introduce new things into your life, both emotional life and sex life.
I'm sorry to hear that I sounded like I was trying to "excuse" male rutting or infidelity. That was not my intent at all.
If the male can put his female at ease, he will get a good return on that effort. If he expects to talk titty bars and fuckbuddies, he should not expect the pleasant variety you talk about.
Any sensible woman who feels loved sees her man's eyes rove, but knows he comes home to her. Her eyes may rove, too.
Is it society that makes men behave like dogs in this tongue-wagging way, or has it always been that way?
Chief,
You walked into that one.
Glad i wasn't providing security.
jim
To rangeragainstwar,
At least he had the guts to try.
"Is it society that makes men behave like dogs in this tongue-wagging way, or has it always been that way?"
Depends on what you mean by society.
For a couple of tens of thousands of years most "society" meant that women were simply chattel; goods to be sold for the price they could bring. A bride was a commodity, not a helpmeet or a lover. A man took his pleasure where he pleased - if the woman did so, she was misusing his "property", with all the consequent punishment.
Most Roman men got their sexual experience raping their household slaves. I suspect that the marriage bed didn't benefit much from the experience.
For most of human history men simply took what they wanted, and if the women objected, it was too bad...for the women. The men wagged their tongues and everything else - it was a man's world.
We live in a time - for all its remnant sexual and societal inequality - of unparalleled sexual openness, freedom and equity.
This means some good things happen - like women get to tell their men what flips their skirt up...and the men want to make it happen for them.
It also means that some things happen that aren't so wonderful - like women finding work shaking their boobs at men for money. It demeans the men - who are stupid enough to think that the women consider them anything but gullible idiots thinking with their dicks who are paying for nothing but the sight of a woman's body. And it is demeaning for the women, who are treated like trash because they are doing what they have to to put food on the table.
But the fundamental dynamic - that men with money want women and women who need money will show the men what they want to see - is neither recent nor an invention of this society. Read the grafitti on the walls of Pompeii, if you doubt me.
"If the male can put his female at ease, he will get a good return on that effort."
Nonsense. You and I both know that people - and particularly the sexual politics between people - are WAY more complex than that.
If the male puts his female at ease, she may reciprocate. Or she may get bored. Or she may feel the itch to start something to see what happens. Or she may truly love him.
Being honest with someone often doesn't put them at ease; it may mean standing beside them and facing some awful truth about them, or you, or the pair of you. Being faithful doesn't mean being at ease - it may expose you to the most heartrending grief, pain or sorrow.
Offering love, simple, comforting love and honesty is a good thing. But it's not EVERYthing, and we both know it.
"If he expects to talk titty bars and fuckbuddies, he should not expect the pleasant variety you talk about."
Very likely so. So should he lie to his girlfriend? Should he tell his male buddies to fuck off?
OK, I see that I'm going to have to post the rest of the letter that started all this...
OK, so here's what happened next:
She wrote: "ahhhhhhh, thank you for your refreshing honesty!!!
I think part of the problem is that I was raised in a household of men who probably do have the libido of tortoises....they just don't come across to me as really sexual men so I have a more 'polyanna-ish' comparison. And even after being married so long, I feel like I have the luxury now of really stepping back and trying to understand men, for my own benefit as well.
and I'm terrible at trying to compete for a man's attention! I figure if a guy wants me, he wants me. I'm not going to try to pull him away from a stripper at a strip club. Is that being too female? See! This is what trips up the males/females...you guys are hardwired to "more, better, faster"...we are hardwired to find the ONE ideal mate and hunker down and nest FOREVER!!!! totally unfair!!"
And I replied: "I figure if a guy wants me, he wants me. I'm not going to try to pull him away from a stripper at a strip club."
Sure you are - and why not. I said we were hardwired - but those of us with a certain amount of control over the wiring WANT to be pulled. We WANT you to smile and nod when we sheepishly confess that the guys are dragging us to the strip club - and then we want you to give us a wet kiss and whisper huskily into our ear "Work up your appetite wherever you want to, slick. But when you want to eat, this diner's open all night..."
"...we are hardwired to find the ONE ideal mate and hunker down and nest FOREVER!!!! totally unfair!!"
It is, and that's where the little roleplaying and fantasy games come in.
In all seriousness, you might want - at the point where you feel like the two are ready - to sit down and talk this over with him. Don't confront him on the fantasy-and-porn stuff, he'll just feel he has to lie. But ask him "We had fun at the burlesque show, and I really like that you find my burlesque dancing fun and sexy. But I wonder - there's so many other kinds of sexy shows for men; strip clubs, grindhouse, belly dancing. What do you feel about them? Have you gone to a strip club? How did you like it? Do you have a fantasy about me that way? Would you ENJOY that sort of fantasy?"
I like the way Dan Savage puts it: he says that good lovers are "good, giving, and game" - good in bed,' 'giving equal time and equal pleasure,' and 'game for anything—within reason.' And part of that is talking openly about what pleasures you, and him.
A sated man is a happy man, and a happy man is a man who sticks around.
And a man whose lover finds fun ways to make him satisfy his naughty fantasies?
You may have to have him surgically removed.
Followed by this:
Oh - and I should add; he's YOUR boytoy, right?
So how about you get YOUR fantasies made true?
A real GGG boyfriend wants to know what makes your palms sweaty...and then wants to make it happen.
Spend some time getting in touch with your Inner Freak - and then, when you two are in the right place, well - what's sauce for the gander is good for the saucy goose, too, right?
Anyway, that's enough of that - let's talk about something really comforting, like death and maiming...
You say "We live in a time - for all its remnant sexual and societal inequality - of unparalleled sexual openness, freedom and equity" -- I'm guessing equity is Freudian for "equality"? Or, we're still property.
I did not equate honesty with being at ease, though honesty is an important part of putting a person at ease.
________________
"If he expects to talk titty bars and fuckbuddies, he should not expect the pleasant variety you talk about."
So should he lie to his girlfriend? Should he tell his male buddies to fuck off?
--I didn't make myself clear. If the man tells the woman he likes titty bars, and she knows shes a FB, then she won't wanna put out any of the fancies your talking about. Its another thing when she is confident enough to whsiper the thing you suggest, but he is a part of making her confident enough.
What your talking about is right, that you need good communication and respect if it's gonna be really good. Even o.k. good.
You give good advice, but if you don't have much of inner freak, and the man is all about sex and porn, then that's not gonna work out. He just needs vaginal slit, a clit, into which he sometimes slipps his dick.
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